AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

Why are pro lifers also against child free by choice women being sterilised? No foetus involved?

It is somewhat disingenuous to suggest this is simply a case of a woman going to jail for getting an abortion. It’s a lot more than that.

It’s a woman who was 8 months pregnant and took steps to force a still birth. If there were mitigating circumstances (abusive partner, rape, etc) I’m sure it would have been taken into account but it was not mentioned in court. She knew she was pregnant, and knew she wasn’t entitled to an abortion legally, so took steps to end the pregnancy.

This happened in May 2020 - it has nothing to do with being unable to access medical services during the pandemic. Her first six months of the pregnancy were before we went into lockdown, so she did have access at the right time. For whatever reason she decided she didn’t want the child, and ensured it wasn’t born alive.

This is not about controlling women’s bodies or limiting access to abortion - unless your view is that abortion should be permitted up to the day a baby is born.

Not a fucking clue. The bottle of domestos looks more appealing than running the gaultlet of the UK Justice system as a female.

Why not though? It’s not just their body.

Of course it is. The foetus doesn't have bodily autonomy. The body belongs to the woman.

Genuinely what are you talking about?

I have adopted children from the care system. I am pro choice. Do you think those two facts are incompatible?

I believe this woman must have been utterly desperate, panicking, not thinking clearly, to have done what she did. She wasn't scoring points as some here seem to be, she was dealing with a reality she couldn't see a way of fixing, buried her head in the sand, and made some really bad decisions under what must have been extreme stress, and in the time of full lockdown. I feel very sorry for her.

😡😠😠😠😠😡

Well. we'd have to argue about the definition of 'accident'.

If you do soemthing and you know there is a potential for an outcome you don't want, and you mitigate against that outcome. but know it's still a risk...is it an accident ?

Rebutted by my posts in this comment chain.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4825963-aibu-to-think-throwing-a-mum-of-four-in-prison-for-having-an-abortion-is-never-the-answer?reply=126840584

Normalizing infanticide and making it non criminal offense will “benefit us as society”?

I thought it couldn't be classed as infanticide until the baby had actually been born? Though on a previous thread someone suggested this too should be allowed "in the first few weeks" (I can still hardly believe it ), so although it was deleted the same could easily happen again

I've not heard much of the evidence in this case so can't comment, but I suppose the obvious question is why she didn't apply for the pills much earlier on, which would have avoided an awful lot of upset

It seems like it had everything to do with lockdown - when lockdown happened she had to move back in with her estranged partner, the father of her other children. She had multiple children who were presumably previously at school and now were home 24/7. She was expected to home school. One of her children also has additional needs. She was trying to conceal the fact that she was pregnant by another man from the man she was living with. It was the consequences of lockdown that likely led her to take these drastic actions.

I drive my car every day. I mitigate the risk by sticking to the spread limit and having my car MOT every year. But guess what? If I got hit by another car it would be.....a car accident.

Why was that? A normal level of trepidation or because she was scared for her wellbeing and safety? We don't know.
I agree that we don't know.

For all we know, she left a perfectly good man for an exciting relationship, one where she may have moved/introduced her children far too early, was reckless in having unprotected sex (and after 4 kids, knows how it works). Perhaps she knew she was pregnant and that's why the new man left? Having no choice but to return to her husband with her kids, not able to face her mistakes, especially being pregnant.

I don't understand why people are so quick to give her sympathy, and think her husband is abusive. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't - but this woman has accountability in her actions. Is prison right? Who knows, but she knew what she was doing.

What a shocking case, and a tragedy for all concerned, but a custodial sentence just does not make any sense at all, especially as I read she also has a child with special needs who will no doubt be adversely impacted, possibly for life by losing his/her mother for over a year.
How does that serve the public good?

I drive, there's a risk of someone pulling out of a side street and t-boning my car. I drive anyway, someone pulls out of a side street and writes my car off by t-boning it. Accident or not?

There was a distinct likelihood that that baby would have been born alive. Supposing she had been, but in desperate need of life and breathing support which her mother was unable (or possibly unwilling) to give her. The poor child would effectively have suffocated. Is it OK that the mother deliberately took the risk of inflicting that on a child at the point when her mother no longer had any right to withdraw life support?

That is appalling. Judge says he's not going to prison because he was 17 at the time - as if that's not old enough to know better - but even if he was over 25 forcing sex acts on a 13 year old in a park would only incur 4 years????
Such hypocrisy. No wonder violent and sexual offences against women are so common.

And also irrelevant to the abortion argument because a woman's right to refuse to continue to provide life support to an unborn baby does not depend on how she ended up providing life support in the first place.

Well I read that she was seeing another man and got pregnant and panicked then lied about how far along she was so quite frankly she does deserve it.

There are consequences, they are the fact that she has to live with what she's done. No other punishment is necessary. How can this judgement get overturned?

I agreed with you until I read the story but now iv read it she absolutely deserves to be in prison

I hope she appeals and wins.

How could she appeal when she has pleaded guilty? And the sentence seems to be squarely within sentencing guidelines.

Abortion is limited in the UK as this thread shows.
There could be circumstances where you could not get an abortion.
Like if you were over 24 weeks.

You cannot gurantee contraception or abortion.

I think this is why so many women find these stories so hard, we've come to believe we have total control of our fertility, and as we can see, we don't.

The only way we could is having the right to abortion on demand up until birth which most people find unpalatable.

The right to abosrtion in the UK is not up for debate, but if it was I'm confident that abortion up until birth would not be consented to by the public, so as someone mentioned earlier, redebating abortion demanding this, is unlikely to go in your favour so be careful in asking for change in the legislation, it could easily go the other way I think, and a reduction in weeks be agreed.

Abortion up to birth on demand is an extremist position.

She can appeal the sentence.

Except that she doesn't have that right beyond 24 weeks in the UK other than for medical reasons.