To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

No that’s incorrect, Jesus also said he came by the sword and there are many hadith that say the best path is clemency and forgiveness. Every chapter of the Quran begins reiterating that god is the most merciful

Please don't pick and choose parts of my life to prove your point. If you don't think that a person experiencing more racial slurs after wearing the hijab isn't racist then you are clearly part of the problem. Don't just reference one aspect of my experience.

Not being able to have an open minded conversation with someone who has a different belief to yourself is nothing to be proud of. You would clearly struggle to have a mature discussion with most of the world. Thank goodness I live in Manchester, this city is a great example of what true diversity looks and feels like.

puberty happens early because of good nutrition and body weight. It wasn't common for 7th century Arabians to have excessive food.

I dobt understand. Are you saying that the Islamic teaching that daughters inherit less is wrong? And why do men need to keep their wives?

Islam is a reflection of the culture it originated from, to this day a woman in the Middle East can get killed by her family if she had sex before marriage. Honour killing is not exclusive to Muslims but its prevalent in Muslim majority countries. In conservative parts of Turkey, a red ribbon is tied to the waist of the bride as a sign of virginity. If you are a Muslim you would know the Quran instructs husbands to beat a disobedient wife, a woman’s testimony is half of a man, women inherit less than their brother, women’s role in marriage is to submit and obey her husband. A man can divorce his wife without giving a reason by verbally stating his wish to do so, a woman has to go through a Sharia Court and give valid reasons. If a woman took a second husband, she will be stoned to death but a man can take 4 wives. I could go on but if you are objective about Islam, you cannot deny the misogyny within it.

Re Polygamy see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6421626/

Well Hadd punishments are part of sharia law are they not? Things like This. Are you happy following a religion which practices this kind of barbarism? We manage universal health care and a welfare state without the need to also chop off people’s hands.

Islam is just too open to being implemented in ways that fly in the face of western values to be fully accepted I’m afraid. Islam needs a reformation (it’s ready for one) that leads to the prohibition of many of its abhorrent practices, equality of women and this includes removing expectations regarding clothing. The ending of male involvement in women’s lives except as equal partners.

A word to the wise, rather than coming on here demanding everyone just accepts these practices, maybe listen to people, understand that Islam in the west needs to change to be more compatible with the prevailing culture. Britain isn’t really a religious country and it jolts when people try and excuse what most see as terrible outdated practices in the name of religion.

@Sunshine0x The Bible has undergone many, many versions where parts were taken out, ignored or reinterpreted to fit the Trinitarian perspective. In fact, Jesus wasn’t a complete pacifist and there have been occasions when Christianity has experience war in history etc. which is precisely why it needed Just War Principles.

All world religions essentially have forgiveness and patience as some of their main virtues so this is not unique to Jesus or Christianity. In Islam, Mohammad isn’t supposed to be a perfect human being without making mistakes. There is a difference being made between committing sins and making mistakes. Also, not all parts of his life are meant to be followed as he had various roles in his life.

Whereas, in Christianity we have Jesus portrayed as this perfect infallible being who encourages others to turn the other cheek. But self-defense is permissible even Christianity and you are allowed to defend yourself if you are attacked. It was never meant to be completely pacifistic. There are parts missing about his life and parts of Christianity was adopted from paganism as a way for missionaries to proselytize.

In Christianity, we have the notion we are all born sinful, that Jesus died to save humanity and once you believe you are “saved” and there is this need for ecclesiastical confession and in Catholicism we have the Sacrament of Penance. Essentially humans are sinners and we must absolve ourselves.

I’m saying it’s not applicable today.

men taking care of their wives and kids and covering her expenses are his duty. He shouldn’t marry if he cannot. She can work but her money is hers and not the families but she can chose to help her husband cover household expenses if she wants and it is recognised as a ‘good deed’ or an act of charity. He must keep her in the manner in which she is accustomed or better also. Many many Muslim women do contribute equally to the family, myself being one, as a solo income household isn’t really sustainable where we live.

A 9 year old will still have the mind of a child however much you feed her

@OMG12 I studied about shariah law and it’s not set in stone and the onus is on the victim to decide whether they should be punished or to forgive. I believe a lot of people should research before they jump to conclusions. For instance, a person who stole, why did they steal? Is it because they’re poor and they couldn’t feed their family? If so, then the judge can rule that they weren’t punished. But if a person was to steal for no reason at all, it was a severe punishment to deter other thieves but the victim decided to be compensated instead that was also preferable. The onus was on the victim whether they wanted the culprit to be punished or forgiven so it wasn’t as though the rules were set in stone and that just because a person stole so they were punished etc.

I'd be interested is there parts where Jesus used violence or went to war? I'm an atheist I don't believe but I don't recall anything of that nature.

We don’t have a perfect society though, we may have a welfare state (on its arse) same for healthcare and education. But hadd punishments or hudud aren’t applicable unless basically utopia has been achieved and all the drivers that push people toward criminality are eradicated

my personal opinion is that captial punishment doesn’t serve as a deterrent so has no place in the 21c. Interestingly Islamic judges prior to the formation of Saudi viewed these punishments as the absolute maximum sentence that can be given, ie. If you steal with no other mitigating factors just pure greed you can’t be executed, amputation is the max. Also in the near 1400 years prior to saudi being founded the number of times these punishments were enacted you could count on one hand. It wasn’t a common thing

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household” (Matthew 10:34-36).

does it mean Jesus was a warlord of course not, there was context behind these words and they were said for emphasis and to prove a certain points. There is metaphor and poetry etc. This is exactly the same as the Quran

I believe there are by nature good snd bad people in every country, culture and religion.

I know many Muslim people in my community and friendship groups. I would never say out loud what I am about to post. I do not like what I know and understand about Islam not individual Muslims but the religion.

I do not understand the concept of martyrdom and how when used as an excuse for terrorism it can be supported, how people who recruit can be given a platform in places of worship and what they preach allowed. There are areas locally to me which are 'no go' for non Muslims, I have been harassed for being an obvious non Muslim woman, called "guree" (unsure of correct spelling) etc, I know women who have been attacked, there is a clear misogynistic culture that I can't agree with, I live near Rochdale and am aware of the grooming gang and how the local agencies were scared of bring seen as Islamaphobic rather than protecting those the girls, I read the discussions around Lee Rigby as his mum comes from Middleton which is a part of the town, I've seen the changes to places like the AO arena and I worked as Cabin Crew and saw the changes to an industry I love. (These changes in terms of security were probably long over due and increased safety is a good thing).

My point is as much as I want to not make assumptions about all Muslims and I truly do believe that there is good and bad in all faiths, cultures etc I am impacted and make opinions based on experience and my overall general experience of Islam is negative. I do not feel this way about other faiths as I haven't been as impacted. Some of the Muslim people I know are the most gental and kind people I could ever hope to meet. I don't feel anything bad towards them as individuals my feelings are of the religion/ culture as a whole.

In regards to clothes some of the clothes are beautiful, people should be free to wear what they want within reason. I don't like veils or coverings which conceals the majority of the face. I think they impare communication and are a security risk.

yes which is why you can’t apply what was the norm, 1400 years ago to the present day. We know more now.

does it mean Jesus was a warlord of course not, there was context behind these words and they were said for emphasis and to prove a certain points. There is metaphor and poetry etc. This is exactly the same as the Quran

Jesus used metaphor, Mohammed literally used the sword against other people. Not remotely the same.

@OMG12 If you actually read what you had shared you’d have seen that horrific action was carried out by Somalia militia and that even some bystanders tried to come to her aid and that the victim‘s father also claimed that she was raped. And if you also did your research about the punishment of rapists you’d see that it was contrary to Sharia Law so I don’t see how that story even demonstrates your point about the barbarism of Sharia Law.

@AndTheSurveySays Was it really a metaphor though? Even the Crusaders didn’t believe that. Perhaps you should Thomas Aquinas’ revised version of the Just War Principles.

If its not applicable today then why does it still happen?

Men having a duty to take care of women and cover their expenses is sexist. It's treating men and women differently.

Could i explain some of the things you mentioned please?

so martyrdom is a really complicated topic. One is a martyr if one dies of a stomach illness or if one drowns too I believe. One is also a martyr for dying for being muslim or defending Muslims. And it’s this defending Muslims that has been twisted which is why even the most conservative and frankly backward scholars and nations unilaterally condemn suicide attacks. The actual defending muslims would be say, if you were in a mosque that came under attack from whoever and you protected the people inside. So in the case of terrorism is just been so perverted so suit some sick and disgusting agendas.

I live in an area in the UK with a large muslim community, some of them I’d say are pretty insular, so whilst I don’t think they are no go areas I can definitely understand why non Muslims would feel uncomfortable. You mention you’ve been called gurree. I think you probably mean gori. So this isn’t an Islamic term, it’s a south Asian one, and it just means white female and it’s not exclusive to Pakistanis. It’s also not an insult, it just a description, but it Is used in a pejorative way sometimes. So I understand why you’d have felt insulted by it. But it doesn’t mean non Muslim, it means a white female- so it would be used to describe me too.

i do think there can be a tendency to cry islamaphobia by certain communities when some cultural practices are called into question or some really shit things that are happening in certain communities are called out. Consanguinity being one and you’ve referenced Rochdale about, that would be another. But what those Muslims have done in Rochdale or isis directly contradicts Islamic teachings and gives Muslims a bad name.

I've noticed that posts have grown increasingly hostile and confrontational in tone, and I think that's part of what the OP was raising with her original post. Ordinary people are confronted with open hostility, challenged and expected to be accountable for the actions of people they've never met and have virtually nothing in common with, told they're "asking for it" by dressing in a certain way, because of the faith they follow.

How can we claim to live in a free and tolerant society if we can't tolerate people having a different faith or a different perspective?

I've encountered prejudice and discrimination because I'm Muslim. As a thought exercise, before dismissing the below real examples of things I've experienced (where I've been directly told the thing that happened was because the person or people perceived me to be Muslim, think about how you would feel if I said these things had happened because I'm a woman, or because I'm British...

• I've been spat at in the street because I'm Muslim.

• I've had men physically threaten me because I'm Muslim, including threatening to sexually assault me.

• I've been told I deserved to have a DC die because I'm Muslim.

These are examples, with differing levels of harm, of what Muslim women like me experience on a daily basis. If you think it's right for people to do these things because of someone's faith or any other difference, then please explain why you think that's the case.

They had different social roles. Jesus in his life time had very few followers. Muhammad led a growing community who regularly came under attack

All religion should be banned it brings misery to the world.
All the wars about religion started by Men.

Think about this... Men wrote what they thought would be great rules to live by.
Women enslaved,cover your body , keep having babies , do what the husband / men say etc.

We as humans should treat each other kindly,respect each other,be thoughtful.
Men need to STOP raping girls/women.

i Don’t agree.

so if a woman is off in Mat leave is it not her partners job to provide for her and her child, especially if she’s on smp?

Have you listened to yourself, oh it’s ok you won’t be executed they’ll just amputate your arm.

so Saudi, Qatar, Afghanistan are basically utopias then. As much as our welfare state is struggling, at least we allow girls an education

Whilst a religion can be used to stone a rape victim I will never see it as offering any value.