White woman In a headscarf, would you stare?

[Tooshyshyhushhushidoi]

And conservative/ ‘modest’ clothing. Would you stare? Would you look twice?

context to follow :)

How do you regard a practising muslim who doesn't wear a hijab, OP? Would you think she is less serious about her religion than you are?

I'm curious to know why you think it's obligatory.

Interesting points. I don’t think you can equate coverings to a bra though. A bra was used as a symbol. Headscarves, hijabs, niqabs… their primary (only?) purpose is to hide parts of women’s bodies so I don’t think you can separate the symbolism of oppression from the actual oppression. While you could argue that some wear bras for modesty reasons, they are also practical pieces of clothing (sometimes!).

Can I just say thank-you for taking the time to explain your point of view. I doubt we will ever agree but I appreciate being able to have a discussion. I am genuinely interested in hearing your views. Too often on mumsnet people quickly react to disagreement with insults and defensiveness. It’s really refreshing to be able to ask questions and challenge someone and get reasonable answers in return!

Clearly there are huge gaps in my knowledge and I appreciate you correcting me. I am aware that my views stem from an emotive response to an article I read years ago about the victim of horrendous domestic violence. Her husband was able to beat her and no one suspected because she wore burqa. Now, I am not for one second suggesting that all women who wear the burqa are abused in this way, this was an extreme case, but that article had a profound impact on me. It’s hard to get past the way that these coverings can be used in order to accept their use in other situations.

OP, I'm sorry people were shaking their heads at you. That's so rude.

I think there's a lot of discrimination against Muslims in the UK.

My husband is from Iran and we don't follow Islam.

But even he gets bad stares and comments occasionally.

Stare at the Queen who was rarely seen outside without one? Why not?

The late Queen was frequently out without a headscarf.
She mostly wore hats..

I’m not saying I know better. I’m explaining my opinion. I have admitted there are (big) gaps in my knowledge and accept
that some things I have said are wrong. I have asked questions. I am willing to listen to the answers and to opposing views and OP has offered just that. It’s called a discussion and I’m learning from it. Perhaps you could try doing the same instead of just trying to shut down anyone who doesn’t agree with you.

I think many see the hijab as a symbol of female oppression, so when they see a white person wearing one, they think that you have chosen to be oppressed and find that noteworthy.

You do realise that bruises can be covered with high necked tops and long sleeve tops as well right?

Many abusive men will avoid hitting the face for fear of repercussions.

Where have I tried to shut you down?

No

Not when 'off duty' Maireas. And as one of her ladies in waiting replied on her behalf "Her Majesty does not notice what other people are wearing". Very good advice.

Maybe a little I wonder if they have married into it and how I wouldn't be willing to wear a headscarf to satisfy a husband. That's all a fleeting thought.

Telling me I’m oppressive does not invite open discussion.

I’ve not said it’s obligatory rather that the majority consensus of the scholars is that it is. It doesn’t really matter what I think. Which for the record is, islamically modesty is important, but modesty is far more than just how you dress, it’s how you talk, act, think, behave etc. But that religion shouldn’t be reduced to what you wear or it creates this sense of well they are wearing such and such they MUST be good people, and it’s such an oversimplification. I don’t care what other people wear. Although I do see women sometimes wearing a t shirt and a hijab or skin tight clothes and I do catch myself thinking oh that’s not proper hijab or wondering if they’d have thought I wasn’t a proper Muslim In the Days when I didn’t wear it. But then I have to have a harsh word with myself, and remind myself that there are many reasons women wear the scarf and it might not just be to ‘cover’

Wouldn’t stare or be bothered, it does bemuse me that choice personally but I respect it.

Of course I know that. But high necked tops and long sleeves are not a cultural or religious requirement and can even be a cause for concern in some situations. Those men who take care to avoid hitting women’s faces would probably fully support the burqa… which is one reason why I don’t!

I’m not sure why you are arguing this point when I have been clear that, while not unique, I do not believe this case was, or is, typical.

The bottom line is that it’s oppressive to NOT support Muslim women who make the conscious and well researched decision to choose to cover their hair. What you are saying is that the voices of women who choose NOT to cover their hair are more valid and more important. In reality, ALL women should be able to choose to wear as much or as little as she herself prefers - without judgement.

I wouldn't stare OP. Accept to smile at you. I used to wear thin and long floaty scarfs and I was out when it started raining and was just generally windy and cold so I wore it over my hair like a friend of mine wears hers (not as nice though). I was on a haven holiday park and I had so many stares it made me feel so uncomfortable I took it off.

Luckily unlike many muslim countres Christian UK allows debates like that - that is freedom, it is that for which we fight, even freedom to allow individual families to bring up their children in religions or no religions with which we disagree (within the limits of the law). Talking to others is always a good thing as alot of people live in a place where everyone has similar views so they have no idea what people are thinking about them.

I tink Islam should force men into head coverings and only let them out when a woman accompanies them to control them etc so I would reverse what I regard as very sexist rules; I am free to express that view but I don't see that reversal happening any time soon, unfortunately.

As for what is choice for any of us that is always a very very very difficult issue. Most of us end up a bit like our parents both because of environment and our genes. In theory people in a cult for example have a choice often to leave but it would mean leaving all their family behind if they left eg Jehovah's witnesses etc so I am not sure that the supposedly legal choice exists when you are conditioned in a certain way. There is also supposedly a gene which determines if you are likely to believe in God or not - so again not entirely choice. Also those of us in mainstream Christian/atheist society in the UK perhaps aren't really choosing lives - we go to work (some of us) rather than sit around on benefits in a fairly conditioned way of 9 - 5 job or those in sexist families where women don't work the women will think they are choosing to be housewives but it is just family culture and not really a choice. That is why we need critical thinking skills, exposure to all kinds of materials and lifestyles and being open to all kinds of ideas

I wouldn't stare/judge... None of my business!

However, I believe there is a subset of (white) people who just can't understand why a white woman would WANT to convert and presumably may be aggressive to any assumed husband, in case he had 'demanded' she wear traditional modest clothing.?

It’s difficult because, on the surface, what you are saying is absolutely correct. Where I struggle is with the reasons I have been given for the choices these women make. They want to protect themselves from the male gaze. They want to avoid harassment and objectification. They want to be modest to fit the ideals of a religion created by men. They worry that others will think they are not “real” muslims. All these reasons have been mentioned on this thread. If I am choosing to do something based on fear of harassment or judgement from others, this is not a free choice. I have yet to see an argument that convinces me there is anything positive about these coverings. I am willing to keep listening. I want to understand. But I’m not there yet.

I didn't say you are oppressive, I said that telling Muslim women who wear the hijab that it's oppressive is saying that you know better than them. The weight of this kind of judgement is oppressive.

You don't like being told this and yet you expect Muslim women to bow to your superior knowledge.

I work in a large company and increasing numbers of women are wearing hijab. I'd love to see you try and tell them they are oppressed.

I'm not one for staring full stop so unlikely. When you say headscarf/modest clothes I'd just assume she was Muslim especially if it was a young person, but lm not really sure id actually register it. Maybe if say I was sitting in a cafe I'd notice more, but I'd also notice someone's dirty shoes/nice earrings, odd teeth, green eyes etc.
Why?

I don’t expect anyone to bow to me and I wouldn’t dream of telling someone else what their experiences and feelings are. I would, however, be really interested in hearing your colleague’s reasons for wearing the hijab if they wanted to share. Based on my current (admittedly limited - not even remotely “superior”) knowledge, I see a garment that has its roots in the oppression of women. Lots of women are claiming this is no longer the case. I am in no position to tell them they are wrong. I am willing to accept that I am wrong (would actually be delighted if I was!) but, so far, none of the reasons I’ve seen for wearing a hijab have been disconnected from the oppression of women. That is my view at the moment. I am still listening to anyone who would be so kind as to share their reasons or experiences.

If you have anything constructive to add to this conversation I’d love to hear it. But if all you want to do is tell me I’m wrong without offering an opposing view or any information that may help me to see a positive reason to cover then I’m not interested in hearing any more from you.

No. Jewish women are often white and many cover their hair, some with wigs and some with headscarves. Alternatively she might be suffering from hair loss for any number of reasons.