White woman In a headscarf, would you stare?

[Tooshyshyhushhushidoi]

And conservative/ ‘modest’ clothing. Would you stare? Would you look twice?

context to follow :)

I meant the counter argument to covering being oppressive. But I think you know that. And that you also don’t have one.

Muslim women and Jewish women for that matter are constantly saying we’ve chosen this, we’ve chosen it for what it means for us as individuals. Maybe it’s modesty, freeing yourself from the ‘gaze’ and objectification, maybe it’s identity politics, maybe it’s due to god consciousness or drawing yourself closer to god, maybe it’s a visual reminder to be your best self, there are a plethora of different reasons different women of faith dress in the ways they do.

you can’t conflate what’s happening in iran with how a Muslim woman in the UK or France or Germany might dress, same with uae, or Kuwait (many women there wear it and many don’t)

I agree

OK, I'm going to say it again. Men make up religions, men are the problem. If religions didn't have the instructions to cover up, then that argument fails. If men didn't behave so badly and didn't consider women to be either madonnas or whore then we would be treated with respect no matter what we wear.
Men behave badly because they are allowed to and religions make the rules about 'modesty'. Men get away with it all the time women don't.

I certainly would not ban fundamentalists Christians, the Brethern (Christians) , jews or muslims or the "county set" from head coverings and here in London no one stares much at anyone other than MEN of course partikcularly from awful sexist countries which do not respect women who stare at women showing the bodies nature or God gave them. It is the men we need to control not the women.

To an extent I agree with you because I hate the debate on what Muslim women should wear, if you follow (you in the general sense) a hijabi influencer a lot of the comments would be policing her clothes. But I think it’s an oversimplification of the ‘modesty’ of faith and ignores that the west is still a deeply patriarchal society

What does then?

but I can’t remember precisely what I’ve worn, sometimes a long sleeve maxi dress? Sometimes a maxi skirt and long sleeve too? Sometimes a tunic and loose trousers? Sometimes very wide leg trousers and a jumper

How is it oppressive if a woman chooses to wear it?

Thank-you for attempting a reasoned argument. I will respectfully disagree with you, however. The reasons you give all relate to men and how men perceive you (assuming your God is also male). Oppression by choice is still oppression. In a world without men, would modesty still be important? There would obviously be no need to avoid the gaze you speak of, no objectification.

Women everywhere are fighting for a world where we are free from the dangers of men. Where we can walk down the street dressed as we please without the fear of being harassed or attacked. Perhaps it’s all a pipe dream. But seeing women willingly buying into a narrative stating that the only way to be safe from men is to hide from them is heartbreaking.

As for Iran, Kuwait, UAE… you may be practicing a watered down version of the religion many people in those countries practice. That doesn’t change the fact that it all stems from the same roots and ideologies. I just don’t understand how anyone can support any version of it.

No I wouldn't stare at all!

Its a common sight round my area. The only people I can imagine staring would be people in small towns or villages with hardly any immigration.

You can be an observant, practising muslim and not cover your hair or wear traditional clothing. My next door neighbour is proof of that.

It's not a requirement but there is often cultural and peer pressure to do so.
It can also turn into a show of personal piety which is ironic.

I agree with AsphaltGirl. The women of Iran, not to mention Afghanistan, are hugely courageous. Clothing is not always about personal choice and conveys messages, whether we like it or not.

I wouldn't, but plenty of people (mainly men) probably would. There is so much Orientalism and fear of "the other". I would love to wrap my hair in a vintage headscarf (think of actresses in the 1950s/60s like Grace Kelly, they looked so chic in their Hermes scarves and sunglasses), but I just know that people are going to stare and make harassing comments.

So Allah is not male, he pronouns are used but not because God is a male. God transcends gender. God is something we cannot even conceive of.

Islamically in a world without men, yes modesty would still exist but it would be different. It would be navel to the knee.

the problem i find is that you are equating clothes with oppression but clothes in those countries (Afghanistan, iran etc, not Kuwait or uae- I was using them as Muslim countries where women dress as they please) clothes are a visual signifier of oppression and removing of the hijab is akin to bra burning. Just because the bra was burned doesn’t mean it is necessarily oppressive

See my post above. If we lived in a world with no men, would they still cover? If the answer to that is “no” then covering is oppressing women. (And, to my knowledge, coverings are not worn in all female company so…)

All due respect yeah but don’t tell Muslims what is and isn’t part of their religion.

im not going to say what is and what isn’t required, not my monkey and all that, but the majority consensus is that the Hijab is obligatory.

can you be observant and not wear a scarf, of course and no one should judge you for that (sadly there are people who will) but you maybe kinder and closer to god than a woman who is fully covered

Your knowledge is incorrect

Yes, I believe many women, Muslim or not, would still cover in a world with no men. They may not wear the hijab but many would still not want to show cleavage or thigh. And many would.

Telling Muslim women you know better than them is just as oppressive, no? You’re the flip side of the same coin.

No, of course not.

They are very common in Birmingham and Islam is a religion, not a race.

Besides, it's rude to stare.

I would notice you here - because you would be unusual .

You said: 'Maybe it’s modesty, freeing yourself from the ‘gaze’ and objectification, maybe it’s identity politics'

Being 'more modest' than those around you and choosing to wear something that is unusual where you are - or wearing something that suggests you are 'crossing cultures' will get more attention and 'gaze' and 'objectification' than just meeting average expectations of dress.

Do you wear the scarf at home or only when out among strangers?

Although it is about private commitment, if you only wear it outside then in a way you are directing the scarf-wearing at the strangers. Some might feel you silently accusing them of being likely to look at you in a letcherous way -or might feel that you are passively criticising them for not being modest/godly enough.

Most people won't be that sensitive about what you wear but I (as a fellow introvert) have noticed that trying to keep yourself to yourself is often noticeable and objectionable.

theres no reasons for me to wear it at home, i live with my immediate family.

it’s not… it covers the body from the wrist to the ankle. Certain maxi dresses are very similar to abayas, same with some of the maxi skirt combos I have

I'm sorry you're getting such a hard time OP. Religious observance is one of the "nopes" of Mumsnet (a I am sure you have noted). I think you explain yourself very well and I am learning things from you, so thanks for remaining patient and educating me, at least.
I was just wanting to say that I reckon all the white people shaking their heads at you in your hijab are thinking some version of,
(a) "Those Arabs, coming over here, taking our jobs and our women..."; or
(b) "Poor woman, forced to cover her hair by an oppressive patriarchal religion."
All very ignorant. Maybe you could ask them which it is, and set their minds at rest.