To think young women just don’t realise... (TW: fertility/ TTC)

[DespairingALittle]

Nc as this combined with various other posts would be outing, this is a bugbear I’ve thought about a lot when ttc myself and something today brought it up again...

Anyhow, AIBU to think ladies In their late twenties who freeze their eggs (or plan to as a ‘failsafe’) don’t realise it’s not a guarantee or the same as ‘pressing pause’ on biology?

This comes about as i was chatting to childhood friend (29, same as me) about kids (I have recently had DS so this is why we were chatting about kids) and she said ‘oh x (school pal) froze her eggs recently, if I haven’t had kids by 33 I’ll do the same, x is so relieved to press pause and take the pressure off’ another friend has also mentioned egg freezing recently for the same reason, both have just said they don’t want the responsibility of kids yet but are in a ‘good’ position to do so ... each to their own but all I could think was that it’s all well and good but it doesn’t guarantee anything! Sadly the demon biology also makes it harder to carry as you age too, it’s not all about eggs!

I just think so many in my generation have the attitude that it will just happen later regardless thanks to science but everyone I know who has had kids or tried to have kids later has struggled (not a guarantee ofc but a statistical probability nonetheless)... interested to hear other people’s thoughts on this. Perhaps this is more of a ‘my circle of friends’ issue than a wider one.

YANBU - it’s a concern, many may end up disappointed in the future, not to mention already falling birth rates etc
YABU - mind your own!

I was just challenging the other poster’s claim that a 39 year-old had a very high chance of never having a baby.

I didn’t say 50-75% chance was fantastic. If you really want a baby, I wouldn’t take that as reassurance particularly, no.

She is painting a rosy view. It’s damn hard for many trainees to juggle parenthood and shift work and exams. Especially in the first couple of years. Unpredictable rotas, uncompromising consultants, need to fulfil workplace-based assessments and a certain number of oncalls, unreasonable service expectations etc. As usual, it’s the women who go part-time and have to start their consultant jobs later. Many trainees suffer burnout and stress, especially when juggling family life and work.

We are talking about the clinics presenting falsely positive information. Well I would say this doctor is too.

And I say that as a consultant of 22 years.

I too have had trainees and peers of every age have babies. Most in their thirties though. That’s ok.

I know women in their 50s and 60s who started trying to get pregnant in their 20s but have never given birth.

Not all fertility problems can be fixed.

Thanks all for your contributions and viewpoints - I’ve got a very busy few days ahead of me so I’ll be jumping off now. It’s been an eye opener but not sure I’ll be changing my mind anytime soon!

Yep, I am a TPD, and the SHOs who get pregnant definitely struggle a lot more than those who wait until they are an SpR. More exam failures, more likely to choose “easier” specialties, more likely to end up on a non-training path, more likely to leave and do GP, or leave altogether.

Obviously correlation isn’t causation, and possibly the women who have children as SHOs are just less career-minded in general, but it is really noticeable that they struggle.

I don’t know anyone who waited until they were a consultant either! In my specialty most new consultants are pushing 40. Most have children as SpRs.

Indeed, “unexplained” infertility (which does not mean there is nothing wrong, it means whatever is wrong cannot be identified with current diagnostic techniques) is harder to treat, because there is nothing to treat.

@Neurodiversitydoctor contrary to most other posters, I actually agree with the majority of your replies, especially the above!

I’m a professional who needed 6 years to qualify. I had a planned baby the year after. I feel like my PQE doesn’t really reflect my actual experience because of my time out and my peers have overtaken me. But I wanted to have children whilst still relatively young (28 and 31).

It’s really hard to strike the balance. I have two very senior, incredibly well paid (£250k+) women who prioritised their career, didn’t pay much attention to men and now have missed the biological boat. I admire their careers, they admire my family. When I look at most organisations with that sort of senior position they’re generally held by men or women without families.

Women can’t have it all even in 2023.

Well, but that assumes that you're financially set up to have children in your 20s. Which few women are. Which leads inexorably to the need to rely on a partner, usually a bloke, to support you. Which is extremely problematic

Most people rely on a partner. If you have a mortgage on a house, you're going to probably need a partner to help pay that along with bills, childcare, food, holidays, transport etc.

I'm the higher earner and would manage just fine financially without my husband.

I doubt I'd be saying that if I had a baby in my 20's when I was still establishing my career. I certainly wouldn't have been able to afford nursery fees for a start.

You’re far more likely to feel isolated and lonely if you have children in your 20s when “your contemporaries” are out enjoying their freedom.

True, but there's no age limit on friends. No reason why you can't be 24 and friends with a 30 year old.

@SouthLondonMum22 so you're a high earner. Nothing to do with age. You can be 40 with no career progression or have graduated with an engineering degree in your 20s and be on track for big money.

Most people cannot financially support a family alone, inflicting the middle class. They're still not willing to give up on their lifestyle to move into 2 bed flat on the less nice side of town with their children.

They’re the same people saying you should buy a house before you have children

stuff just falls out of the sky, apparently

Do statistics suddenly not matter now?

It is a fact that the older you are, the more financially stable you are likely to be.

You can be on track for 'big money' in your 20s but do you know what could easily knock you off that track? Having a baby.

PP in this thread saying women should not have kids in their 20s because it'll "set back progress on the gender pay gap" - wtaf? Why aren't we talking about how careers are so incompatible with motherhood at biologically-appropriate ages?

This thread isn't saying people should pop out kids aged 20 it's saying 30 is a better shot than 38. 30 is plenty of time to qualify in a career.

Really depends where you are late 20s is absolutely the norm for children where DH grew up even now. His cousin who was 40 has been left feeling isolated as she so much older than many of the other mums.

I had first late 20s - wasn't the only one where I was - very mixed neighbourhood or were ever we've lived feel about same age as most other parents - though I do think 17 years on that may have changed.

We also got flack from family because we hadn't bought the house yet - and were still moving round due to work.

I think it's ever harder to have kids in 20s - because it takes so long to get settled or stable.

Why aren't we talking about how careers are so incompatible with motherhood at biologically-appropriate ages?

I have no idea why this isn't a bigger issue - but getting establish in careers getting settled with housing all take ever longer time frames all leading to pushing back motherhood - and that becoming more the social norm - for those who do want to try.

That's not the point I am making. The point is, just like these threads are always started by someone who has already had a baby there is always someone who comes along who basically says while I managed to meet my life partner and know I wanted babies and get all of that young stuff out of my system by my early 20s, and buy a property and have children and train as a Dr even before I hit my 30s. With the massive inference being I managed to do all that (a Dr you say!) You've got no excuse.

Because there is someone on this thread that is doing that and has actually been pretty rude to other people (including me) for living their lives differently. Qudos to them, there are many reasons I didn't do any of those things to the same timeline but I also manage not to be a complete bitch to people who lived their lives differently

@DespairingALittle

I think asking more questions is good advice. It certainly won’t hurt.

Try and have more one on one time with them too.

When you are pregnant/have a young baby conversation tends to centre around this and of course you’ve constant interruptions with the baby.

There may be a lot of info you don’t know about their current situations/how they’ve made their decisions.

From an outsider’s perspective, if their partners were that fantastic and the ones they wanted to have babies with - they would have married them or be in process.

And it does sound also they want to prioritise travel/career.

Maybe they don’t fancy the lack of sleep, hard work, extortionate childcare costs, working part time right now.

That’s ok.

@SouthLondonMum22 well I've had two babies in my early 20s and it didn't knock me off track. I got two degrees in STEM. I also know other mature student s with kids and I know people from secondary who went to Russell Group universities. So no, education or career doesn't have to send you off track. You have a rather outdated and uninformed view of how things often are.

Also, you claim to be a high earner when the majority are not. Do statistics not matter now?

To be honest, I'm not sure why you're arguing with me. All I said was I don't think most people are self-sufficient at any age. Most people cannot pay for everything alone with children in tow.

I think it's ever harder to have kids in 20s - because it takes so long to get settled or stable.

Yes, I agree in general. I just don't think age is the magic ticket some people make it out to be. Other factors like education/income and family support are more significant.

It doesn't have to but it often does. I wish it was outdated but that simply isn't true.

I think the pp was talking about completely relying on someone else financially such as deciding to take a career break because nursery fees are expensive and it is almost always the woman who would make that choice.

Two things come to mind.

Firstly, the argument about being older than most of the Mums at the school gate is null and void. It depends on location. We live in an expensive postcode. Most of the mothers are 5 to 10 years older than me - in their mid to late 40s.

They had to wait to have kids to be able to progress career and afford to live in the area.

A lot are medics who need to be within 20mins of hospital (for on call) hence having no choice to move somewhere cheaper.

Secondly, has anyone looked into the data being skewed? ie at late 30s/40s most people who wanted to have children will have done so. Ovarian reserve aside. Out of what’s left you will have more people with gynae issues - who would have had as much of a problem conceiving in their 20s… But their relative proportion of the population pool of people ttc is greater.

The only way of truly knowing the fertility rate for women at say 38 would to be prevent the entire cohort from ttc until this time.

Ie.

50000 women, 5000 have fertility issues (10%).

30,000 (60% of total) decide to reproduce, with 27,000 (90%) being successful and the expected 3000 (10%) being unsuccessful.

The remaining 20,000 decide to reproduce, joining the 3000 who are still trying, total population pool 23,000.
You still have 5000 women with fertility issues but they now account for 22% of the population pool ttc which could skew stats.

This is exactly what I see in my area too. The idea that you would be an old mum at the school gate if you’re 45, in my post code, is ridiculous.

It’s not just geography though. Our views on the matter are also conditioned by what we see around us at work, socially, etc. Among the London-dwelling professionals I work with / are in my wider social circle, it is no exaggeration to say that not a single one of them became a mother before 35. The two senior female partners in my firm both had a baby after 40.

In a way I am grateful to MN for the alternative experiences/viewpoints that are absent in my world. I feel that it helps me manage my own expectations that I may never have a baby in my late 30s, despite what I see around me.