Should I have kept my big mouth shut at work?

[Perlosa]

I work for a large tech company and manage a very small, specialist team. My LM was sharing a ppt that he is planning on presenting to the wider team in a all hands call next week. It's a ppt concerning systemic racism and has come directly from People. We had a flurry of similar talks following George Floyd's death but not so much recently.

At the end when my manager was asking for input/feedback I (as a half Indian/English woman) said some may feel uncomfortable with being labelled "a victim" of racism. I as the only POC (white passing but that's beside the point) thought it was a fairly innocuous point to make and was just wanting my LM to strike the right tone. But after we got off the call one of my colleagues sent an IM to the effect of "what was that all about them?" and some other slightly disapproving/patronising comments. Tbg it seemed like it was said in advisory way from him - I've only recently been promoted.

Really scared I've messed up.

Not pocket POC ffs

I don’t think you should have kept your mouth shut, no.
as women (let alone a minority woman!) it’s so Ingrained in us not to make waves, isn’t it. F*ck that.
they can learn from your insight. And for what it’s worth, I do agree. The victims word being overused puts the emphasis in the wrong place.

perpetrators of racism are the ones who need to do the work to change their behavior. To call people “victims” is reductive.

your colleague is the one who is out of line, I think. Wtf, unless you’re close, messaging you that was wildly inappropriate; you said nothing wrong.

Being able to write clearly and concisely is a skill you lack, OP.

Ultimately you need to understand that group meetings are not the place to raise sensitive issues about race. If someone publicly asks for PowerPoint feedback, they are just looking for token comments of support. They probably spent time & effort creating it and just wanted to show it off. They’re not trying to be blindsided about the tone they used concerning race, you likely embarrassed them. They’re not wanting to hear someone talking for the sake of it…like you were during the slide about home ownership. You essentially challenged them unintentionally. Welcome to office politics.

conversations about race in the workplace do tend to be token gestures, but in their defence it can take years for the culture to meaningfully change and this presentation might be a step in the right direction. ultimately when challenging people, you need to tread carefully as to not create an awkward atmosphere in a meeting and make your point succinctly & clearly. Sometimes it’s better to say nothing especially if your point isn’t tangible

You have a right to share your views and feelings. I doubt you’ll have any major blowback but also doubt it will make any difference to the people pushing these presentations.

Well said

Yes, very well put

White people pulling you up because of your valid opinions, as clearly they know more about racism. Wow

@CabbagePatchDole the implication of your statement is that Asians should not be lumped in with other ethnicities who you perceive as not doing so well.

colleagues are right. The OP comes from a place of condescension: Asians are better off than blacks (for instance)

But how is that the implication? I think you are being incredibly unfair and divisive.

@CabbagePatchDole And there is also a small but growing number of black people who are becoming very successful and wealthy, but that does not make them immune from racism.

And I have made that exact point in this discussion.

Also who are the 'People' it has come directly from?

Sorry that should have read 'People team'

I was thinking the exact same thing. Sad and depressing. Unbelievable really 😒

OP, I don't think I understand the full thread and haven't followed everything that's being said, but I do see where you are coming from about the us of the phrase 'victims' of racism.

Maybe you should just focus on that specific phraseology with your manager and try to articulate to him exactly why it's problematic?

Are there any other colleagues or people you know who are people of colour or from global majority ethniciites who you could speak to and help you find a way to articulate this?

I would talk it through with some friends (ideally who are not white British), get some outside opinions and then write an email to your boss and maybe copy in HR just clarifying why you feel that the use of 'victims' wasn't appropriate. It doesn't have to be aggressive but just explaining.

Honestly OP, don't bother and leave them to it. Let these people make fools of themselves and then congratulate themselves for being such great ambassadors against racism like many posters on here, because you know they know best. Smh.

How is that helpful?

I get that it's infuriating, frustrating, and very easy to get to a point where you want to throw your arms up and go "fuck it" when it feels like people do not understand.

But surely trying to communicate, discuss and explain these things is the way forward for everyone.

Your colleague was quite wrong to message you criticising your comments. What was his objection?

I can see what you are getting at, but another POC might interpret your viewpoint as victim blaming, as though you think it’s their choice to see themselves as a victim and that’s all that is holding them back. Pointing out how successful the British Indian community have been as a group by pointing to house ownership as a sign of their success and non-victimhood, despite “experiencing racism,” could be seen by some as believing in a hierarchy of races, or notions of superiority, which sounds pretty racist in itself. So, basically, you can’t win! Stereotypical views of different races do affect experiences of racism - racists don’t actually lump all ethnic minority groups together as one homogenous mass, they may view them all as inferior, but assign different negative characteristics to different groups, meaning there may be different experiences and effects of racism for different groups. Racism certainly has an unwelcome effect on all minority groups, though.

From what you’re saying, the “what was that all about” was criticism rather than confusion. Have you answered him?

@WalkaroundPointing out how successful the British Indian community have been as a group by pointing to house ownership as a sign of their success and non-victimhood, despite “experiencing racism,” could be seen by some as believing in a hierarchy of races, or notions of superiority, which sounds pretty racist in itself.

Okay, so put like that I can see how someone may interpret what I said as offensive.

Absolutely not my view just to be clear.

You did nothing wrong at all here. Your line manager or the person who messaged you are the only ones who got it wrong.

I know my cousin's would find it patronising

I get it, @Perlosa - basically, it is patronising as it “others” specific ethnic groups and makes assumptions about people on the basis of their ethnicity.

Labelling everyone as a victim is just another form of racism. It is othering, people can suffer various levels of racism but they are still people not just victims.

Yes, in an ideal world. It's really hard when people who have no idea tell you you're wrong and that you don't know what you're talking about, and really what's the point of a discussion because people with that attitude are unlikely to change anyway. A white person telling a non-white person about racism is a joke. Just like a man telling a women about sexism is a joke.

@Perlosa you aren't making sense are you? You say you are a POC but pass for white, but you want to also be offended on behalf of your house owning family and pilot brother. It makes you sound whiney and frankly making something out of nothing

Your manager asked for input/feedback, and you gave it. Your feedback was constructive and well thought out - I don't see what the problem is. Others might disagree, but they are free to give their own feedback, as you did. It's for the manager presenting to decide how to incorporate any feedback in the final version of the presentation.

I think simply ask them to change 'victims of' to 'people who have experienced targeted'.

Would that improve the presentation?