Should I have kept my big mouth shut at work?

[Perlosa]

I work for a large tech company and manage a very small, specialist team. My LM was sharing a ppt that he is planning on presenting to the wider team in a all hands call next week. It's a ppt concerning systemic racism and has come directly from People. We had a flurry of similar talks following George Floyd's death but not so much recently.

At the end when my manager was asking for input/feedback I (as a half Indian/English woman) said some may feel uncomfortable with being labelled "a victim" of racism. I as the only POC (white passing but that's beside the point) thought it was a fairly innocuous point to make and was just wanting my LM to strike the right tone. But after we got off the call one of my colleagues sent an IM to the effect of "what was that all about them?" and some other slightly disapproving/patronising comments. Tbg it seemed like it was said in advisory way from him - I've only recently been promoted.

Really scared I've messed up.

*per se

Not 'per say'

@ThatFraggle Oh thanks for the correction, per say did look wrong.

I hate paying lip service, guess I need to get used to it.

There are a few British-Indians in the wider team so was just trying to avoid patronising them to be honest!

I can't stand management speak bollocks

Did you want the power point to say many POC have experienced racism rather than have been a victim of it?

Because what is the difference? I don’t think the language is offensive as if you are a victim of something then how is it offensive if someone points that out?

Also is it not ok to talk about home ownership in poc? Just because they own a home it does not mean they have not been a victim of something

Maybe next time if you are going to suggest something like amendments I would do it in private

Got you - so you don't want them to go with the approach that every non-white person is a victim?

Did you want the power point to say many POC have experienced racism rather than have been a victim of it?

Because what is the difference?

Hmm interesting, I personally do think there is a distinction between the two. And I believe my BI family members would agree (not 100% sure)

Agh I guess I don't know what I wanted, just giving my input as you do in situations like this.

Just because they own a home it does not mean they have not been a victim of something

I agree!

hmm I don’t know - perhaps your employer should consult an external agency in the future as surely expertise in this area would lie in that direction

I would say he/she did not intend to offend but really when you have no real life experience of that scenario then you are going to leave yourself vulnerable to different interpretations

I'm surprised two white people are making an issue with what the only POC attending says about being labelled a victim. It's not you that should keep their mouth shut. What you said is valid and don't let others make you doubt yourself. You are literally the only person there that actually experiences what they are talking about.
More worrying is that you are posting saying you should not have made the point and kept your big mouth shut. I think they should listen to what you have to say.

there's no nice way of saying this so I'm sorry for sounding bitchy - but given this thread as an example is it possible that what you said wasn't particularly coherent?

In which case you were definitely not unreasonable to make the point you did (as per calmdown's explanation of what you intended) but perhaps your colleague was right in that it didn't come across very well? You are interpreting their comments as disapproving/patronising but perhaps he's interpreting yours in a different way than you intended too. Sounds like nobody is really 'in the wrong' - perhaps just something to reflect on in future - have a think about exactly what you want to say, even if this means feeding back ten minutes later in writing rather than at the time, or getting someone you trust to read over it, rather than saying it straightaway.

It's good of you to provide feedback, lots of people just ignore and want to get back to work, and it sounds like you've got really valid points that would be valuable contribution - but if you're going to the effort of doing so you want to make sure people get what you're trying to say.

If you don't know what you wanted you shouldn't have made comment. In situations like this you need to be able to portray what you're saying clearly and without emotion. You're trying to communicate to a room of people with different experiences.

Haha am I that incoherent? I really don't see how my OP is THAY difficult to understand. I assumed most people on mumsnet are probably professionals and would know lm, ppt etc

I don't get how the two are linked. The house owning and the being subjected to racism thing.

It wasn't massively clear. My problem was not with the abbreviations at all. I read it, read the thread and read it again. It was much clearer on a second reading. You have an issue with the word "victim" because within the context of the presentation, you feel like it reduces individuals to a reductive category, which could be prejudicial to them and the perception of them. But you didn't write that in your OP, you just put "the victim". It just needed a bit more explaining.

^appreciate the effort!

Hmm I didn't really explore why the term may be offensive. But you've put it very well @darjeelingrose. Thanks.

I can see trying to support my sentiment using the house ownership stat was weak/tenuous.

I think you were just trying to be honest and have a more nuanced discussion around the issue.

Talking about racism is an area that makes people VERY nervous in schools, workplaces etc-- especially white people, especially companies where there is inadequate representation and most of the employees are white- where complaints might be filed and someone could be reprimanded. Everyone trips over themselves in a hysterical fit to be seen as not racist.

Which means viewpoints such as yours are met with confusion and shut down quickly, instead of being seen as an opportunity for everyone to develop empathy and understanding. You were trying to be heard, and were instead made to feel embarrassed and like you shouldn't have said anything. Even though you're the only POC there and your opinion needed to be heard.

I'm confused. You said you were the only POC there but also said every British Indian person at the table agreed

She's talking about the last time she had lunch with her family and something her cousin said that resonated with the point she was trying to make in the meeting

It made sense to me but I do wonder if that's where the confusion from your colleague lies

I'm mixed race and I do not want to be seen or talked about as a victim. Have I experienced racism, yes. Have I experienced sexism, yes. Do all POC want to be referred to as a victim as a result, probably not. Do all women want to be referred to as a victim, probably not.

One of the impacts of systemic racism is the othering of a particular group of people due to their differences. Labeling all POC a victim just because they are POC feels othering to me. And passive and ineffectual as if POC are just drifting around being all victimy.

It sounds like you have a family OP who are doing well for themselves despite systemic racism, despite any hardships they have faced and by being called a victim it might feel (it would to me) like all of that hard work and effort has been wiped out and instead of being qualified, successful, hardworking people you are merely victims.

And quite frankly if a white person takes it upon themselves to tone police, or take issue with a POCs input into a presentation on systemic racism they need to take a long hard look at where they fit into the conversation.

And yes, an all hands presentation at work that presented me as a victim automatically from a senior white manager would rankle with me as well.

I agree that 'victim' is a disempowering word, that encourages, well, a feeling of victimhood. 'Experience of' is more abstract and detached.

Bit cheeky your colleagues dismissed what you said. I've come to hate the whole EDI industry. We're importing so much of it from the US, and it seems to create division. Plus don't get me started on how much of the EDI budget tends to go on promoting trans ideology, which is actively harmful to women.

I think victim is a very loaded word and can be quite stigmatizing - I work with people who have been subject to abuse and criminal activities and a lot of them dont want the word to be used in relation to them either. I can see your point that it would seem patronizing or belittling to some people - I guess the difficulty is knowing who may feel like this, and who welcome or prefer it?

I'm still confused by your objection. Is it the word victim that you don't like? What point was being made about home ownership?