Should I have kept my big mouth shut at work?

[Perlosa]

I work for a large tech company and manage a very small, specialist team. My LM was sharing a ppt that he is planning on presenting to the wider team in a all hands call next week. It's a ppt concerning systemic racism and has come directly from People. We had a flurry of similar talks following George Floyd's death but not so much recently.

At the end when my manager was asking for input/feedback I (as a half Indian/English woman) said some may feel uncomfortable with being labelled "a victim" of racism. I as the only POC (white passing but that's beside the point) thought it was a fairly innocuous point to make and was just wanting my LM to strike the right tone. But after we got off the call one of my colleagues sent an IM to the effect of "what was that all about them?" and some other slightly disapproving/patronising comments. Tbg it seemed like it was said in advisory way from him - I've only recently been promoted.

Really scared I've messed up.

This.

There's nothing wrong with what you said and you should have been listened to.

I'm very familiar with tech company jargon and I can picture exactly the type of powerpoint.

I don't think you said anything wrong.

Tbh I think your colleague just didn't understand the point you were trying to make. A bit like saying all women are victims of sexism - yes, sexism is pervasive, but I don't like being seen as a victim of sexism.

I wouldn't dwell on it, it's no big deal.

Agree with @1offnamechange entirely. But your subsequent post?

I assume that most people on Mumsnet are professional's?

Why?

Strange assumption to make which has irrationally annoyed me greatly. As an ex professional senior level twenty plus years, now sahm, who couldn't follow the abbreviations without Google

The person may have just been very confused, I couldn't understand any of your posts until a few of the replies here explained what you probably meant.

I think it was a good point, not sure if they understood in the moment so maybe clarify with a follow up email to your manager.

Agree with others that a white colleague correcting a POC isn't a good look and doesn't say much for the effectiveness of the training!

I 100% understood what you meant in your OP and in the following one re house ownership. I think the 2 white guys should have paid attention to what you were saying.

I think your colleagues' reply to your very valid question, showed a glaring lack of sensitivity.

It is only natural that people of colour would prefer to be and seen as survivors as opposed to victims but not everyone has been on the recieving end of prejudice, so they have limited insight and understanding, hence their innapropriate reply to you.

I think it was one of those situations where people say ‘I’d really like your input on this’ and what they mean is ‘say something good about my thing’. They didn’t want constructive feedback, so they shouldn’t have asked for it.

Apologies for making the assumption re mumsnetters being professionals. Just the impression I got from being on AIBU. Pretty sure i have seen LM used on previous threads and POC is everywhwere right now it seems. Did not mean to make you irrationally frustrated. It honestly didn't come from a negative place, my husband and I plan for me being a SAHM when the time comes.

@Catchasingmewithspiders It sounds like you have a family OP who are doing well for themselves despite systemic racism, despite any hardships they have faced and by being called a victim it might feel (it would to me) like all of that hard work and effort has been wiped out and instead of being qualified, successful, hardworking people you are merely victims.

Very eloquently put, thank you! This is the exact argument my cousin made. That the term "victim" somehow reduces agency, minimising or discounting the hard work that goes into carving out success.

I think it's much more likely that your colleague had got distracted and so when they hears your input, got in touch to find out what was going on. I doubt anyone is bothered by your comment and even if they are, I doubt they would do much about it

@Perlosa Perhaps it would be useful to spell it out more simply for your colleagues, rather than use the topic of home owning, which requires a couple of additional steps in the thought process?

Hence - 'some people find the term 'victim' derogatory, and would prefer (x term) to be used instead'

What term would seem more reasonable?

Many UK citizens have been, and are, the victims of racism. They have no more problem with the term than victims of rape, bullying, muggings, burglaries, DV etc.

You may not identify with it @Perlosa but that is your own, 1 single person's, experience. I'm not surprised it has raised eyebrows among your colleagues and management.

I'm not sure what your point is wrt to your grandfather being a successful businessman. His success does not mean that he and others like him, weren't victims of racism.

😂😂😂

You think the phrase people of colour is complete garbage and utter bollocks because one poster finds it uncomfortable to be blanket referred to as a victim when she doesn't feel like one?

That's an interesting thought process there

@TooBigForMyBoots I have been subject to racist behaviour personally despite being white passing. I'm entitled to an opinion ghag deviates from the narrative that was being articulated.

Last year I went to get my car serviced, I clearly said to the mechanic please call me before adding/fixing parts (I like to shop around). Came back and the mechanic has made a change without my permission and demanded £300. Anyway, we got into a disagreement (I'm naturally polite/a people pleaser) and one point I felt the need to physically step back and the man rudely said "don't worry, I'm not going hit you" and then whispered "p*" under his breath. Yes I experienced racism but I'm no victim. I'm allowed to say that. I wanted to acknowledge "POC" are not a monolith and our experiences/views reflect that.

I think what the OP is getting at is that in a widely attended work meeting for people like her to be labelled as victims may make those people feel singled out, othered, or patronised.

It doesn't mean those people haven't been victims of racism its more i think, that shes saying that she would feel more comfortable with phrasing like 'may have experienced racism' rather than 'are victims of racism'. I guess the first implies a transient state of being and the second more of a passive consistent state of being, I'm not sure?

The OP was invited to give feedback and said some might feel uncomfortable with it, she doesn't seem to indicate she was speaking for everyone. Certainly her experience chimes with conversations I have had with Indian and British Indian people at work, mostly men, who would feel patronised by being labelled victims in front of their work colleagues.

Of course that could also say more about what people take from the word victim, rather than the actual meaning of the word and maybe the issue is how people hearing it perceive victims, I don't know?

I do know if it had been raised in my workplace it would have sparked a respectful conversation, and would not have raised eyebrows or caused a colleague to message another going 'what was that all about' and being disapproving. I also wonder if the poster hadnt been a female POC whose recently been promoted whether the reaction would have been different.

If im honest I would find it slightly wierd to be called into a meeting for a white man to teach me about how I was a victim of racism, it feels like a rather heavy handed tick box exercise that, if the OPs experience is anything to go by, wont foster an environment where people feel empowered to discuss any of the topics raised which feels like a wasted opportunity.

I don't understand it, but speak your mind, OP. Why not? If people disagree, they'll get over it. You're fine.

sorry i cross posted with the OP there

Oh and I mentioned my grandfather because he took pride in his success (born basically into subsistence farming) and would certainly have viewed the label "victim" as an insult. He's much much more than that.

Ahhh typing that reminded me of how proud I am of him, my heart just panged.

phrasing like 'may have experienced racism' rather than 'are victims of racism'. I guess the first implies a transient state of being and the second more of a passive consistent state of being

Thank you for articulating so well what I'm trying to say.

Is it possible if you are white passing that your colleague didnt know your heritage and instead thought you were being white saviourish?

I know Im mixed race enough to not look British but also mixed race enough to be ambiguous so people cant place me and assume im some wierd Celtic throwback

I am part Welsh, part English and part Indian, but the bits of Greek, Palestinian and French thrown in there a few features that just seem to confuse people.

I really didn't think "othering" was the thing I was uncomfortable with. But, yes, it feels like a modern version of let's just lump every brown & black person together. Where is the nuance in 2023?