Should I have kept my big mouth shut at work?

[Perlosa]

I work for a large tech company and manage a very small, specialist team. My LM was sharing a ppt that he is planning on presenting to the wider team in a all hands call next week. It's a ppt concerning systemic racism and has come directly from People. We had a flurry of similar talks following George Floyd's death but not so much recently.

At the end when my manager was asking for input/feedback I (as a half Indian/English woman) said some may feel uncomfortable with being labelled "a victim" of racism. I as the only POC (white passing but that's beside the point) thought it was a fairly innocuous point to make and was just wanting my LM to strike the right tone. But after we got off the call one of my colleagues sent an IM to the effect of "what was that all about them?" and some other slightly disapproving/patronising comments. Tbg it seemed like it was said in advisory way from him - I've only recently been promoted.

Really scared I've messed up.

I'm not saying this in a nasty way - but I think if you spoke in the same way during the meeting as you've done here, I can see why some people got confused and maybe their reactions/disagreements were because they misunderstood what you were saying.

I couldn't understand what happened until about 10 posts in when other posters explained it.

My maiden name was Indian, so some of the people in the call were definitely aware of my background. Recent joiners less so.

Hmm I know there were some typos and grammatical errors in my OP. I'm getting weird vibes from the posters telling me I'm borderline incoherent and difficult to understand.

Many people have stated they have understood me just fine.

Im with you on the wierd vibes!

I think I get what you mean OP. It sounds like basically your colleagues are being all "white saviour" and whilst meaning well, are talking about racism and using people as examples of victims of racism in a patronising way. Nothing worse than someone telling you what you are or should think. Look how annoyed women get when men "mansplain" or how people are about trans.

I think you need to remember this until all about you, or even allabout British zIndian.Tgere are lots of other minority groups who may feel they are victimised more than you do

I also understood you just fine (though also a maths graduate!).

I suspect some of the lack of understanding is because what you are trying o say is at odds with the narratives that people expect in these discussions. and it can be difficult for people to explore nuance because they are concerned saying the wrong thing and offending someone - or being emailed by their (white) colleague for not towing the expected line. So people are trying to work out whether you are saying something they can agree with or something they need to shut you down for. And they need to tease it out and judge other people’s responses so they can be sure they end up on the right side of the “argument”.

For what it’s worth I think you’re trying to articulate something I’ve heard whispered and said in asides by a lot of POC in the US (which is where I currently am), especially non-Black and Hispanic POC. But the Racism discussion is pretty much dominated by Black activists (and they have good reason to be activist here). I have been wondering if the POC coalition is going to hold for much longer because the Black experience is not the experience of many other groups,

OP, with all due respect, you don’t seem to understand systemic racism. Not every Asian in this country is lucky enough to own businesses and property by the way. And there is also a small but growing number of black people who are becoming very successful and wealthy, but that does not make them immune from racism. Racism is not necessarily about personal wealth, although it can be a component of it as many black people are often denied the opportunity to make good money.

the implication of your statement is that Asians should not be lumped in with other ethnicities who you perceive as not doing so well. This is very insulting. I have come across this sort of thing before and if there were black colleagues in the room some
of them may well have been disgusted by what you said. Well done to your colleague for calling it out.

I agree with the other poster 'experienced' racism is better than 'victim' of. I don't understand why your manager is doing the presentation to be honest. Is he an expert in this area? or is it just a tick box ticking exercise buy your firm. Were there any other people from different ethnic groups present?

*by

I disagree with this. I think the white colleagues are right. The OP comes from a place of condescension: Asians are better off than blacks (for instance) and wouldn’t want to be lumped in with them. This is why the colleagues were outraged - and rightly so. I suspect the colleagues are young - that generation are pretty on the ball regarding this stuff. I am very proud of them. Also the OP is white presenting, So the colleagues may not even know she is Asian.

Also who are the 'People' it has come directly from?

This reminds of an experience one of my DH’s friends had at work-he was informed that he was to be given a Latino recognition award (he’s originally from Brazil) He refused to accept the award, saying that he doesn’t identify as Latino and saw no reason to be given such an award!

It’s the labeling that he objected to, similar to labeling people as “victims.”

You had a perfect right to express your opinion, OP.

I said I didn't understand, not because of errors or grammar, though. Your words all made sense. What I didn't understand was the context. You said that people didn't want to be labelled as victims. Did the guy presenting use the word "victims" or was it more the demographic breakdown and a tone of pity as he spoke of ethnic minorities? If the latter, would changing a word here or there make much difference anyway? When he spoke about racism, what was the context? Was it racism in your company's processes that he was directly trying to address, or was it more a vague societal racism? You know the answers to all these kinds of questions, but we don't, and that's why it's hard to understand the situation. Nothing to do with your language.

So you think brown people should be treated the same? They all should be lumped in a group? I find your comment quite shocking tbh.

I understood exactly what you meant. I can't quite understand why other people couldn't. I am white but have had the occasional racist comment (about my ethnicity). I don't see myself as a victim. I imagine other races may not like being labelled as victims either. They talk about people who have been sexually assaulted as survivors and I can understand why.

I suspect the colleague who contacted you did not realise you were half Indian. I would explain to him that you were giving your view as seemingly the only person of colour at the meeting. Make sure he is aware of it and point out that he, a white man, is criticising a person of colour for having a view on what may be offensive to other people of colour. You may want to make it nicer than that blunt statement of course.

Nailed it: Make sure he is aware of it and point out that he, a white man, is criticising a person of colour for having a view on what may be offensive to other people of colour.

I only understood the victim part the rest of it is incoherent apart from the fact that the OP is a white presenting British Indian and her boss is white. I am basing my posts on what others have translated. It is difficult to know much else at this stage.

I think it was relevant that the the OP spoke about this in the context of being half Indian. It doesn't mean she thinks black people should be labelled as victims and not Indian or that Indians were in some way superior to black people.

You were asked for input/feedback and you gave it.

The thing is that a lot of Mumsnet users (and other people online too tbf) only have to see a word and they leap on it like a hyena and create a whole narrative based on their views. It avoids the necessity of thinking which can be difficult and uncomfortable.

You have a very valid point. You didn't explain it clearly in your posts - nothing to do with abbreviations - just that the link between the usage of the word victim and your example of house ownership didn't seem to have a connection until it was explained properly a few posts in.

Assuming your colleague got the point you were making it seems inappropriate that he's querying it in a condescending manner or implying he somehow has more insight or perspective than you.

I don't fully understand. I would like to know what the colleague said. I would also like to know where material came from for the PPT. Also, will any other ethnic groups be able to give insight before it is delivered. The whole thing seems a bit slap dash. Structural racism is too important for that.

Your manager asked for feedback and you gave it. How very generous of you. If your colleague wants to further understand 'what that was all about?' you may feel like elaborating but I don't think I'd waste my breath. Try not to worry too much about this.

How dare you go off message! How dare you go against their feeling that they understand "racism" better than a person of colour. They are patronising and I think you should refer to their internalised racism.

Well put.

I certainly hope that you are a pocket otherwise you are "whitesplaining"!