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Original poster

Sibs think we should sell to pay care home fees

731 replies

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 21/05/2023 23:15

Context: Victorian semi, converted into two one bed flats by myself and my parents in the '90s. I married and DH and I have continued to live in and own the ground floor flat, with extension and garden (and paid off the bloody mortgage!) , parents owned (paid for outright) and lived in the upper flat. Mum died a decade ago and Dad has recently moved into a care home so his flat has to be sold to pay the fees. DH is also battling a chronic illness.

My brothers (2 of them) think that we should "just sell the whole house and we'll find you "somewhere to live". My Sis is telling them to back off and I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone.

Sorry, just needed to vent.

OP posts:
Ginmonkeyagain · 22/05/2023 11:12

I presume the mortgage the OP took out on the bottom flat was to buy it from her parents. So no gifts or additional help.

Velvian · 22/05/2023 11:12

She hasn't @MrsClatterbuck , just that it is separated into 2 flat and she and DH paid the mortgage.

bellac11 · 22/05/2023 11:14

Velvian · 22/05/2023 11:12

She hasn't @MrsClatterbuck , just that it is separated into 2 flat and she and DH paid the mortgage.

She said she owns it.

Emotionalsupportviper · 22/05/2023 11:20

Just wondering - could you let the upper flat to cover the care home fees etc?

Mirabai · 22/05/2023 11:22

When the property was legally divided - did you and DH pay the fair market price for it?

tonyatotter · 22/05/2023 11:22

bellac11 · 22/05/2023 11:14

She said she owns it.

Show quote history

There is ownership and ownership, if on the title only her/her husbands name appears then she and DH own 100% and can tell the brothers to do one. If however the fathers name still appears in some form then its a bit more complicated because he has equity in it.

If she is unsure the OP can do a land registry search to find out.

My advice whichever is to stay put, but the status of the ownersip is very important as it will decide if the brothers or the LA can ever attempt a claim over her flat or a percentage of it (LA situation should be sorted by her DHs condition).

If she owns it outright or on a long leasehold (ie 99 years), then it is entirely her and her DHs decision over who to sell to and when, this year, next or never.

TheYearOfSmallThings · 22/05/2023 11:23

She said she owns it.

She said that, but then her choice of wording is odd. "A mortgage was taken out" (rather than "I got a mortgage and bought one flat from my parents") and "I paid off the mortgage!" (who else would pay it off if it were her mortgage?).

Put this together with the fact that her siblings seem to believe her father owns both flats, and it isn't crystal clear.

weightymatters73 · 22/05/2023 11:23

You also need to be aware there will be a hefty dose of price blindness in those that are looking to put it back to a house.

People just look at flat=£500k, 2 flats=£1m, House=£1.2m and think 2 flats become 1.2m if you recombine them. But there is a huge amount of cost to make 2 flats back into a house, meters, heating, kitchens, bathrooms, re configuring rooms.

CabernetSauvignon · 22/05/2023 11:24

bellac11 · 22/05/2023 11:14

She said she owns it.

Show quote history

She does say she owns it, but some people use that term when they have a rental or lease arrangement. It would really help to clarify that.

Mirabai · 22/05/2023 11:25

bellac11 · 22/05/2023 11:14

She said she owns it.

Show quote history

What does that mean though? Did she pay the market price for it - and freehold or leasehold?

Tigofigo · 22/05/2023 11:28

Her DF could have bought the house with 50% deposit, and OP taken out mortgage for half the remainder, hence getting a pretty hefty leg onto the property ladder. In which case I can see why the sublime might morally if not legally think they have a right to ask OP to sell it.

Tellmeimcrazy · 22/05/2023 11:28

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 22/05/2023 08:47

To be clear, the property was separated legally into two flats, with separate entrances. Each has its own utilities and council tax is paid per flat, not on the house as a whole. The mortgage was taken out in the bottom flat, at the market rate once all the renovations had been completed. DH and I have worked hard to pay the mortgage off and we really don't want to move. We have good public transport links, shops and restaurants within a 10 minute walk and we get on well with our neighbours.

I think I'm going to tell by brothers to take a hike. I fail to see why I should sell my home so that a better price can be gained on Dad flat.

100% agree with you. They have NO SAY in what you do with your property as in your flat. Selling your dad's may not be so easy either by the way given the circumstances.

dontgobaconmyheart · 22/05/2023 11:28

I mean, they are welcome to suggest it aren't they but you say you own that flat OP, so what has it really to do with them. Presumably the transfer and deeds were designated properly to you when this sale was made? Your siblings wouldn't profit from the sale if you own it so surely it's just a case of telling them you're staying put for the moment and that's that. Presumably they are aware that you own it and are not just living in it with parents casual say so? I think a bit of clarity might help here OP - do you have your name on the deeds of the flat, who's mortgage did you "pay off" and in what circumstances, was a solicitor used?

Ultimately if your dad's flat needs to be sold to cover care home fees then that is unfortunate but the reality of things. Does anyone actually hold power of attorney over your fathers assets? He's still living so unless he is not mentally capable and someone is nominated POA and has that legal right then all the talk of selling his assets is jumping the gun anyway.

The council will assess your dad finances, including property he owns or jointly owns and should be in the process of doing this anyway if it has been agreed he has moved to a care home. If you are talking about private arrangements and your siblings wish to fund that then they can do so off their own bank balance and against their own properties if that's the road they wish to take; it doesn't mean you have to agree to the same.

strawberry2017 · 22/05/2023 11:29

Is the flat you live in registered legally to you? X

Original poster
SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 22/05/2023 11:31

Two different flats registered with the Land Registry. Dad's name is on the deeds for the top flat, mine and DHs on the deeds for the bottom flat. The whole family have always been aware of this. I'm not sure why people think we'd pay a mortgage on a property we would never own?

When my oldest brother called earlier for his daily "have you come to your senses yet?" chat I told him I have arranged for a couple of EAs to come and give us a price for Dad's flat only. He called me a selfish little bitch and hung up on me!

OP posts:
RavenclawDiadem · 22/05/2023 11:32

Your property and your Dad's property are therefore entirely separate.

It is no more appropriate to ask you to sell yours, than it is for you to ask that they sell theirs.

Oneborneverydecade · 22/05/2023 11:34

Omg that's really out of order

Sorry OP. Do they feel hard done by? Is that what's motivating this behaviour?

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 22/05/2023 11:34

If your parents (presumably) were the freeholders, and you didn’t take it over it with the downstairs flat, OP, I’d certainly look into transferring that. It would give you control over anything a new owner of upstairs might want to do. Also (speaking from experience) lack of clarity over FH issues can cause a lot of bother/delays with a sale.

tonyatotter · 22/05/2023 11:34

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 22/05/2023 11:31

Two different flats registered with the Land Registry. Dad's name is on the deeds for the top flat, mine and DHs on the deeds for the bottom flat. The whole family have always been aware of this. I'm not sure why people think we'd pay a mortgage on a property we would never own?

When my oldest brother called earlier for his daily "have you come to your senses yet?" chat I told him I have arranged for a couple of EAs to come and give us a price for Dad's flat only. He called me a selfish little bitch and hung up on me!

Thanks for confirming

Absolutely no grey area or confusion then, you don't have to sell if you don't want to - politely tell them to leave it alone. They can't do anything, you are perfectly within your rights to stay in your home (which is yours, not theirs or your DFs) as long as you want.

Good luck OP! and sorry your dad is having to move.

OutOfMyPocket · 22/05/2023 11:35

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 22/05/2023 11:31

Two different flats registered with the Land Registry. Dad's name is on the deeds for the top flat, mine and DHs on the deeds for the bottom flat. The whole family have always been aware of this. I'm not sure why people think we'd pay a mortgage on a property we would never own?

When my oldest brother called earlier for his daily "have you come to your senses yet?" chat I told him I have arranged for a couple of EAs to come and give us a price for Dad's flat only. He called me a selfish little bitch and hung up on me!

Don't take his future calls, or at least only when it suits you. What a horribly entitled man. Apart feom anything else, I imagine you've been keeping an eye on your parents more than he has.

rwalker · 22/05/2023 11:35

Did you actually buy the flat off your parents or have u just paid for renovations

TheYearOfSmallThings · 22/05/2023 11:36

He called me a selfish little bitch and hung up on me!

Ah well, you don't have to be nice to him anymore - just tell him to go fuck himself.

tonyatotter · 22/05/2023 11:36

rwalker · 22/05/2023 11:35

Did you actually buy the flat off your parents or have u just paid for renovations

OP has confirmed, its legally hers with no other involvement.

Sweetpeasaremadeforbees · 22/05/2023 11:36

When my oldest brother called earlier for his daily "have you come to your senses yet?" chat I told him I have arranged for a couple of EAs to come and give us a price for Dad's flat only. He called me a selfish little bitch and hung up on me!

This makes zero sense to me. If the money is going to pay for a care home, why does it matter if there is a bit less money for it? I don't know WTF your brother is up to but calling you a selfish bitch would tell me he was up to something (assuming he hasn't always been such a twat to you).

midgemadgemodge · 22/05/2023 11:37

I think the reason people questioned if you owned your flat legally was that was the only sane explanation for your brothers behaviour