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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Sibs think we should sell to pay care home fees

731 replies

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 21/05/2023 23:15

Context: Victorian semi, converted into two one bed flats by myself and my parents in the '90s. I married and DH and I have continued to live in and own the ground floor flat, with extension and garden (and paid off the bloody mortgage!) , parents owned (paid for outright) and lived in the upper flat. Mum died a decade ago and Dad has recently moved into a care home so his flat has to be sold to pay the fees. DH is also battling a chronic illness.

My brothers (2 of them) think that we should "just sell the whole house and we'll find you "somewhere to live". My Sis is telling them to back off and I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone.

Sorry, just needed to vent.

OP posts:
Dakin · 22/05/2023 17:03

This is nuts. Why would they expect you to sell your own home you are happy in to support this plan? You bought it fairly at the time and separated everything legally. This is the worse type of bullying and all so they may benefit from a bigger piece of eventual inheritance if still available. No way.

midsomermurderess · 22/05/2023 17:05

You can’t be made to sell what you outright own. You must know that. Tell them in no uncertain terms you aren’t selling your home. The consequences be damned. Who are they? What is up with them if they can’t get that?

bellac11 · 22/05/2023 17:07

CabernetSauvignon · 22/05/2023 15:41

You'd also potentially just be giving money to the council. If your Dad lives for any length of time anything he has to leave may well be swallowed up by care home fees - £1-1.5K a week plus extras adds up to frightening amounts very quickly.

Next time your brothers push you to sell ask them whether they're offering to sell their homes to contribute to the pot. When they say no, point out that that makes them selfish little bitch equivalents, because the position is certainly no different.

Show quote history

She wouldnt be giving money to the council at all. She would be giving it to her father for him to fund his accommodation costs, just like all of us pay for where we live. Jesus.

MorganKitten · 22/05/2023 17:09

DollyParkin · 22/05/2023 15:50

You'd also potentially just be giving money to the council. If your Dad lives for any length of time anything he has to leave may well be swallowed up by care home fees - £1-1.5K a week plus extras adds up to frightening amounts very quickly.

What you're proposing is that rate-payers fund someone's living costs. If a person has the means to pay for their care, they should.

@SeriouslyTryadifferentstory shouldn't sell her flat, of course not. And her brothers are bastards to try to force her.

But if their father has sufficient assets to fund his living costs, why should tax-payers pick up the bill just so that the OP and her siblings "get their inheritance"? If their father needs to use his assets to live, there IS no inheritance.

All people are entitled to part funded care, your side is taken from pension payments, top up the council in he area pay.

HowcanIhelp123 · 22/05/2023 17:10

The thing is the plan won't work irregardless! They're legally 2 seperate properties owned by 2 different people! The house can't be unified unless both owned by 1 person and I can't see OP buying her dads flat. They'd have to be sold as 2 seperate entities anyway, even if to the same buyer (who could then unite or let out as 2 flats etc). Any money from sale of downstairs flat would go solely to OP anyway as the owner, it wouldn't be split 50/50.

If OP was worried about having neighbours upstairs and wanted to sell and buy a bunglaow for example then she could ask an estate agent how much each is worth, and them be marketed as the two properties that could be combined if same party was interested once they assumed ownership. But she doesn't want to so its a moot point, and the brothers won't be happy as they can't pilfer any proceeds!

MargotBamborough · 22/05/2023 17:11

bellac11 · 22/05/2023 17:07

She wouldnt be giving money to the council at all. She would be giving it to her father for him to fund his accommodation costs, just like all of us pay for where we live. Jesus.

Show quote history

But she doesn't have any obligation to give her father money to fund his living costs. And if she lived in a country where she did have such an obligation, her siblings would be equally liable.

Mumof4alsoabonus · 22/05/2023 17:12

So if they had sold it to a stranger (at the same price you bought it obviously) would they expect them to sell up? They are completely out of order. I really don’t see their reasoning at all

WiddlinDiddlin · 22/05/2023 17:12

Have your brothers been watching too much Homes Under the Hammer OP?

They seem to have conveniently forgotten the money you've put into yours to purchase it, extend it etc, making it significantly more valuable than the first floor flat above.

Have they persuaded themselves that you only moved there to take care of parents and now parents are not living upstairs, you have no further reason to wish to live there?

A sound and firm 'fuck off' seems appropriate!

bellac11 · 22/05/2023 17:13

MargotBamborough · 22/05/2023 17:11

But she doesn't have any obligation to give her father money to fund his living costs. And if she lived in a country where she did have such an obligation, her siblings would be equally liable.

Show quote history

Thats not the point of my post, it was to correct (in this hypothetical and illogical scenario) that if OP did this bonkers action that her brothers propose, that it would be the 'council' that benefit, as if people paying for their own accommodation and care is somehow not fair. Of course it is fair, we all pay for ourselves.

Clymene · 22/05/2023 17:16

Your brother called you a selfish little bitch for not selling your home?

Wow.

Have your brothers always been arseholes or is this a new thing?

FatCatBum · 22/05/2023 17:19

I'm glad you told them where to go OP, they wouldn't be expecting you to sell your home if you lived down the road! Your home ownership then would have the same relevance as now (ie none)

Your brothers are basically trying to increase their inheritance at your cost. Fuck that (and they can call you all the names if they want to be childish). I wouldn't even entertain the daily call, i'd just say this is no more up for discussion than your brother selling his home to put into your dads pot and hang up every time he mentions it

aloris · 22/05/2023 17:27

OP it's very surprising, in one way, that your brother(s) would essentially expect you to give them part of the value of your home to put towards your dad's care/their inheritance. On the other hand, I've seen enough examples in my life of people expecting a woman to essentially live in penury or give up her financial security/assets, to take care of others (elderly parents, disabled relatives, in one case a multimillionaire who bullied his low income sister into doing enormous amounts of personal care for him for free, including housing and feeding him on her own low income, even after she was diagnosed with cancer, and then left his entire fortune to his girlfriend), that I totally believe your brother(s) would do this. If the woman protests, there are lots of "you're so selfish," "how can you leave dad in that position," "you should do it out of love," etc. But these same arguments are never applied to the man. The man is never expected to give up his job, home, income, savings, etc., to take care of a family member "out of love."

Thesharkradar · 22/05/2023 17:28

He called me a selfish little bitch and hung up on me!
it's good that he's not clever enough to disguise his true feelings, you can easily outmaneuver this one😁

Thesharkradar · 22/05/2023 17:32

Mumof4alsoabonus · 22/05/2023 17:12

So if they had sold it to a stranger (at the same price you bought it obviously) would they expect them to sell up? They are completely out of order. I really don’t see their reasoning at all

the 'reasoning' is: she is a woman, we are men, therefore she will sacrifice her interests for ours.
That's just the default male MO, in days of yore when might was right and they were the only ones who could earn a good living we just had to go along with it for the most part
but now they don't got that much leverage over us no more😁

Enko · 22/05/2023 17:47

@SeriouslyTryadifferentstory have you asked your brother why you have to give up your home but he doesn't?

This is so strange. Sounds like he is having some sort of willful amnesia

Fandabedodgy · 22/05/2023 17:48

Your brother is beyond unreasonable

Why isn't he selling his home.

CantGetDecentNickname · 22/05/2023 17:51

So angry on your behalf OP. Think it could be worth checking out the possibility/cost of a solicitor's cease and desist letter to your DB. Just to remind him of the facts:

  • it is your and your DH's property which you both own and completely independent of the flat that is to be sold,
  • you paid fair market rate for it as he is well aware having been present at the time it was discussed,
  • his behaviour is bullying and as it has happened more than once has now become harassment.

The thing that annoys me the most is we'll find you "somewhere to live" which is so condescending. How dare they talk to you as if you are somehow lesser than them, the "big" brothers. They ought to be looking out for their DSis but appear to be trying to fleece her and make her homeless instead. Your DH is ill and to even suggest he should undergo the stress of having to move shows what selfish greedy people they are. They don't even appear to regard him as worth consideration, yet he owns your flat with you!

It is sad that you are having to sell your DF's flat. Is there a possibility of renting it out?

TomatoSandwiches · 22/05/2023 17:51

aloris · 22/05/2023 17:27

OP it's very surprising, in one way, that your brother(s) would essentially expect you to give them part of the value of your home to put towards your dad's care/their inheritance. On the other hand, I've seen enough examples in my life of people expecting a woman to essentially live in penury or give up her financial security/assets, to take care of others (elderly parents, disabled relatives, in one case a multimillionaire who bullied his low income sister into doing enormous amounts of personal care for him for free, including housing and feeding him on her own low income, even after she was diagnosed with cancer, and then left his entire fortune to his girlfriend), that I totally believe your brother(s) would do this. If the woman protests, there are lots of "you're so selfish," "how can you leave dad in that position," "you should do it out of love," etc. But these same arguments are never applied to the man. The man is never expected to give up his job, home, income, savings, etc., to take care of a family member "out of love."

Yes and they do it because it still works a lot of the time!
Makes me sick.

bewilderedhedgehog · 22/05/2023 17:51

Some of the comments here are amazing. My understanding is that the OP bought the flat at the proper market value, and paid her parents accordingly. Her father now needs to sell the flat (his flat, not the Op's flat) to fund his care. When his funds are exhausted the council will pick up the costs. The OP has no obligation to fund his care. If the family decided to fund his care then they should all fund it equally.

DollyParkin · 22/05/2023 17:55

CabernetSauvignon · 22/05/2023 16:58

Where did I propose that OP's father's means should not be used to pay for his care? Hint for you: absolutely nowhere. Nor did I suggest anywhere that this would somehow enable OP and her siblings to "get their inheritance". I can't fathom how on earth you drew such weird conclusions from my post, unless it was wishful thinking on your part.

For the hard of thinking, what I was pointing out was that it would be absurd for OP to be made to sell in order to give her own and her husband's money to her father, particularly given that the only benefit could ultimately be to decrease the council's potential liability. Would you do that, @DollyParkin?

Show quote history

Your post was ambiguous, as several PP have pointed out. None of us is "hard of thinking" - you say:

"You'd also potentially just be giving money to the council."

This could be read as you saying that the OP & her siblings should not sell their father's flat to fund his care because "You'd also potentially just be giving money to the council."

Which is a typical argument of those who wail on about "not selling the family home" to fund a parent living elsewhere.

It took you a whole other rude post to explain what you really meant.

VioletMountainHare · 22/05/2023 18:04

HowcanIhelp123 · 22/05/2023 17:10

The thing is the plan won't work irregardless! They're legally 2 seperate properties owned by 2 different people! The house can't be unified unless both owned by 1 person and I can't see OP buying her dads flat. They'd have to be sold as 2 seperate entities anyway, even if to the same buyer (who could then unite or let out as 2 flats etc). Any money from sale of downstairs flat would go solely to OP anyway as the owner, it wouldn't be split 50/50.

If OP was worried about having neighbours upstairs and wanted to sell and buy a bunglaow for example then she could ask an estate agent how much each is worth, and them be marketed as the two properties that could be combined if same party was interested once they assumed ownership. But she doesn't want to so its a moot point, and the brothers won't be happy as they can't pilfer any proceeds!

That’s what I was thinking. One of the brothers would need to buy their Dad’s flat first. And if they don’t put it on the market and pay the going rate the council may decide the family have tried to cheat them out of money. Worst case scenario the council decide the Dad has a claim to entire property after a conversion and you end up with a very messy legal battle where OP has much more to lose than her brothers.

MinnieGirl · 22/05/2023 18:06

Your sister seems more reasonable OP, what is she saying about your brothers behaviour? Have you told her what he said this morning?

Daleksatemyshed · 22/05/2023 18:13

Well @SeriouslyTryadifferentstory at least your DB's have shown you their true colours, typically they were happy for you to live next to your DP's all the while your Dad needed help at home but now they're trying to preserve their inheritence, once again at your expense. I'd like to be charitable and say they haven't taken onboard how little time your poor Dad has left, and want to make sure he has all the money he needs to be comfortable, but I can't, they think a house will make more money than two flats and will preserve more money for them later.
If refusing to be a mug and holding on your legally owned property makes you a bitch then so be it

Ellie56 · 22/05/2023 18:20

This is bonkers.

"Just sell the whole house"? It isn't a whole house any more. it's two entirely separate properties, and has been for over 20 years.

And why should you sell your flat that you legally own? What is their thinking?

Thesharkradar · 22/05/2023 18:24

they are just trying it on, trying to pull rank in the hope/expectation that you will meekly roll over and obey them