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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Sibs think we should sell to pay care home fees

731 replies

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 21/05/2023 23:15

Context: Victorian semi, converted into two one bed flats by myself and my parents in the '90s. I married and DH and I have continued to live in and own the ground floor flat, with extension and garden (and paid off the bloody mortgage!) , parents owned (paid for outright) and lived in the upper flat. Mum died a decade ago and Dad has recently moved into a care home so his flat has to be sold to pay the fees. DH is also battling a chronic illness.

My brothers (2 of them) think that we should "just sell the whole house and we'll find you "somewhere to live". My Sis is telling them to back off and I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone.

Sorry, just needed to vent.

OP posts:
midgemadgemodge · 22/05/2023 12:10

Op had already said she is the owner
And paid for it not given it

weirdoboelady · 22/05/2023 12:12

I confess I haven't read the whole thread, just OP. But can I ask - in sibs' financial proposals, have they taken into account the extra care you have been giving to your parents when you lived just downstairs from them?

Thought not. Have you been back to them with financial proposals which include the value of this care? Because I suspect they will suddenly see that they are getting a VERY good deal if you just sell your parents' flat....

Pipsquiggle · 22/05/2023 12:12

I don't understand how your brothers have come to the conclusion that selling both flats is better than selling just your dad's - what's their logic?

They are being non-sensical

RightWhereYouLeftMe · 22/05/2023 12:12

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 22/05/2023 12:07

My brothers want to sell both flats and split the proceeds 50/50. As I own the bigger flat with its own large garden, I'd effectively be giving money to Dad.

Dad is in his late 90s, has severe dementia among many other health issues and quite honestly could pop off at any moment. Any money he leaves will be split equally 4 ways. So by selling my flat and giving some of the proceeds to Dad I could actually be increasing my brothers inheritance.

Thank you all for your input. Its forced me to think properly about what I want to do, rather than just getting upset about my brothers.

Right, so they're thinking that the money won't all be needed for care and they want more of it in your father's name before he dies and inheritance is sorted.

Arseholes.

HashtagShitShop · 22/05/2023 12:14

rwalker · 22/05/2023 11:47

Yes but in all honesty 1 child sitting pretty in flat given the other 2 end up with nothing

I think the majority of siblings would feel hard done by

Show quote history

She paid full market value. Had a mortgage on it. She has paid to extend it.

She also will have been likely sole carer (or joint with her sister as let's face it boys don't help. I speak from an entire life time of experience as carer for three different family members.)

It is NOTHING to do with the siblings OR the parents estate. The boys want the share of their fathers once he passes (not realising that even in a short term stay at a care home you're talking 750 plus per week, potentially over a thousand if a really good place each WEEK. They also want her to make her and her family homeless so they can have money from there too. Despite it not being owed to them as it is HER home that she paid 100 percent for.

JenniferBarkley · 22/05/2023 12:15

My brothers want to sell both flats and split the proceeds 50/50. As I own the bigger flat with its own large garden, I'd effectively be giving money to Dad.

You need to be very clear with them that the split would not be 50/50. "John, I have no interest in moving. Besides, my flat is worth more than dad's, so it wouldn't be 50/50 and wouldn't make much difference to dad's finances. This is my home, I'm staying in it, and you won't hear me saying otherwise."

Lotus717 · 22/05/2023 12:16

OP, who paid for all the renovations and the splitting of the house into the 2 flats? It’s just you mention that you took out a mortgage after the renovations happened so did your parents pay tens of thousands for the conversion, new kitchen, bathroom, rewiring, decorating etc?
Was the conversion in some ways a favour to you in some ways or would they have converted the house anyway and sold one flat on the open market?
There is more of a back story to this because it seems odd that both of your siblings agree that you are being selfish. Unless your parents just told them that they still owned your flat and they were letting you live there but that the whole house still belonged to them.
Also if your flat has the only garden it does seem strange that your parents would give up their garden also it seems strange that they as the older generation would opt to stay in an upstairs flat with stairs and no garden rather than no stairs with outside space.
Do you think that your brothers feel you have taken advantage of your parents?

HowcanIhelp123 · 22/05/2023 12:17

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 22/05/2023 12:07

My brothers want to sell both flats and split the proceeds 50/50. As I own the bigger flat with its own large garden, I'd effectively be giving money to Dad.

Dad is in his late 90s, has severe dementia among many other health issues and quite honestly could pop off at any moment. Any money he leaves will be split equally 4 ways. So by selling my flat and giving some of the proceeds to Dad I could actually be increasing my brothers inheritance.

Thank you all for your input. Its forced me to think properly about what I want to do, rather than just getting upset about my brothers.

But that would never happen because you'd be selling 2 different properties which are owned by 2 different people legally. You could agree to your flat going up for sale too, even with the same company going to the same buyer, but it would be a seperate sale. You'd get all the money from yours, your dad would get all the money from his.

Your brother is focusing on the £ signs and he needs to be told how much of a twat he's being.

QuintanaRoo · 22/05/2023 12:18

Time for you to block your oldest brother I think. How dare he call you a selfish bitch. He’s the selfish one who’s out to maximise his inheritance

LimeCheesecake · 22/05/2023 12:19

Right - message to all 3 siblings :

“there seems to be some confusion with some of you. We own flat A outright, it is a separate property to flat B that Dad owns. This has all been sorted with land registry and council, and there are separate utilities so there shouldn’t be any problems with the sale going through for Dads flat. Dad doesn’t own my flat, in the same way he doesn’t own any of your properties, only his assets need to be used to pay for his care. He has no more claim on my flat as on your homes.

I can see that I might get a higher price selling both flats together compared to selling Dads flat B and my flat A at a different time, however DH and I do no plan to move over the next 10 years so this doesn’t matter now.

It is kind that you are trying to help me get a higher price for the flat DH and I own outright, but we don’t want to move now. We also have no interest in buying Dads old flat and coverting both back into one house, we are happy to have new neighbours above once it’s sold.“

Whowhatwherewhenwhy1 · 22/05/2023 12:20

If my brother spoke to me like that I would point blank refuse any further conversations on the matter. Even if the money was split 50/50 you would still be stumping ip legal fees and moving costs and it is unlikely you would now get something equal or better located for the same monies. I think they ate bullying and taking the Mickey to protect their own interests. In the unlikely event you agree do so only on the basis that you get minimum full market value for your falt and have them sign a document saying all legal and moving fees incurred by you will cone either from their pocket or the fifty per cent of monies left. Seems you will be the only one to suffer/lose out financially under his current plan!

midgemadgemodge · 22/05/2023 12:21

If the brothers had any concerns - they should have raised them 25 years ago

The fact they seem to want to make their sister homeless does seem like there are big family disputes beyond this - I wonder how much money is invoked

Perhaps the older folk thought the garden would be more use for children
Perhaps they effectively shared to garden but the sister took on the maintenance

Whatever - legally it's clearly wrong and morally it seems a joke also

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 22/05/2023 12:21

I don't understand why your brothers think they/your father will benefit from the sale of your flat at the same time as the sale of your father's flat? Surely, if you own your flat and have paid off the mortgage, any profit from the sale of your flat belongs to you, not your father? I must be missing an important point here, as I don't understand your brothers' logic at all.

MzHz · 22/05/2023 12:21

@SeriouslyTryadifferentstory I'm confused, and I dare say you are too - why do they think that your flat is part of their inheritance? surely you have paid for it yourselves, it just happens to be in the same location as your dad's flat? Why on earth do they think you are selfish for wanting to keep your own flat? they would not get any money from it if you decided to sell.

Would renting it out provide enough money to cover the care home?

tonyatotter · 22/05/2023 12:21

LimeCheesecake · 22/05/2023 12:19

Right - message to all 3 siblings :

“there seems to be some confusion with some of you. We own flat A outright, it is a separate property to flat B that Dad owns. This has all been sorted with land registry and council, and there are separate utilities so there shouldn’t be any problems with the sale going through for Dads flat. Dad doesn’t own my flat, in the same way he doesn’t own any of your properties, only his assets need to be used to pay for his care. He has no more claim on my flat as on your homes.

I can see that I might get a higher price selling both flats together compared to selling Dads flat B and my flat A at a different time, however DH and I do no plan to move over the next 10 years so this doesn’t matter now.

It is kind that you are trying to help me get a higher price for the flat DH and I own outright, but we don’t want to move now. We also have no interest in buying Dads old flat and coverting both back into one house, we are happy to have new neighbours above once it’s sold.“

This, exactly

Bathintheshed · 22/05/2023 12:23

You're brother is more than welcome to sell his own property to pay for your father's care/pay for your father's care. Why is it up to you? Do they believe they have some claim to your property?

SquishyGloopyBum · 22/05/2023 12:23

This is batshit from your brother. Just ignore them. Stop answering their calls. Legally you are fine.

What horrible people.

Mirabai · 22/05/2023 12:25

She paid full market value.

OP has never said this. She says she took out a mortgage at the market rate (ie a mortgage based on the market value at the time).

It’s not clear if she and her parents contributed equal amounts to purchase the house and then divided it. Or whether her parents gifted her the downstairs flat and she & DH took out a mortgage on it. Nor who paid for the renovations. Nor whether she has the freehold or leasehold. It could be leasehold and her father owns the freehold for example.

tonyatotter · 22/05/2023 12:27

SeriouslyTryadifferentstory · 22/05/2023 12:07

My brothers want to sell both flats and split the proceeds 50/50. As I own the bigger flat with its own large garden, I'd effectively be giving money to Dad.

Dad is in his late 90s, has severe dementia among many other health issues and quite honestly could pop off at any moment. Any money he leaves will be split equally 4 ways. So by selling my flat and giving some of the proceeds to Dad I could actually be increasing my brothers inheritance.

Thank you all for your input. Its forced me to think properly about what I want to do, rather than just getting upset about my brothers.

Bonkers!!

if your flat is worth more, thats your money, don't give it away, 50/50 pah!!

it doesn't sound like your poor old dad will need very long in terms of care so his flat should cover it easily.

Your brothers are just doing a cash grab on your property, the message another poster suggested to them was perfect - send that, then don't entertain any further discussion on the matter, your dads flat is sold and thats it.

If you and DH decide to move later on, separately, thats up to you, and the proceeds are yours!

Nanny0gg · 22/05/2023 12:27

Mari9999 · 22/05/2023 12:07

OP, did you and your husband take out the mortgage or was the mortgage taken out in your father's name? Is it possible that you were paying rent equal to the mortgage value? Specifically, who is the titled owner of the property?

The OP has explained this

LimeCheesecake · 22/05/2023 12:29

@Mirabai - then if the brothers thought their parents were being ripped off all those years ago, that was the time to raise it, not now after 20+ years. (Assuming as the op has paid off her mortgage that’s the time frames we are discussing)

it could be the brothers didn’t realise their sister had paid for half the house, or they had been led to believe it was still mainly the parents house, with a flat made below for their sister, but that’s not the case and once it’s been pointed out, they need to back off and accept their mistake.

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 22/05/2023 12:30

Mirabai · 22/05/2023 12:25

She paid full market value.

OP has never said this. She says she took out a mortgage at the market rate (ie a mortgage based on the market value at the time).

It’s not clear if she and her parents contributed equal amounts to purchase the house and then divided it. Or whether her parents gifted her the downstairs flat and she & DH took out a mortgage on it. Nor who paid for the renovations. Nor whether she has the freehold or leasehold. It could be leasehold and her father owns the freehold for example.

I see your point, @Mirabai. Yes, maybe the brothers feel it is unfair if their sister was given the flat by their parents but their parents never gave them gifts of similar value?

HowcanIhelp123 · 22/05/2023 12:30

Mirabai · 22/05/2023 12:25

She paid full market value.

OP has never said this. She says she took out a mortgage at the market rate (ie a mortgage based on the market value at the time).

It’s not clear if she and her parents contributed equal amounts to purchase the house and then divided it. Or whether her parents gifted her the downstairs flat and she & DH took out a mortgage on it. Nor who paid for the renovations. Nor whether she has the freehold or leasehold. It could be leasehold and her father owns the freehold for example.

This also happened over 25 years ago. I would assume living below them that OP and her DH had significant impact on her parents lives and in a caring capacity over that time. Even if it was split 50/50 at the time, I certainly wouldn't begrudge this. Even if I did, the legal standing is that they own them separately and the brothers don't have a leg to stand on.

If the brothers had concerns the time was 25 years ago. They were happy for their sister to likely take the bulk of caring for their parents as they aged when they didn't think about the money.

ArdeteiMasazxu · 22/05/2023 12:33

I think your brother is now just realising what happened all those years ago. Your parents quite legitimately sold you half their house, and there's nothing wrong with that. They then presumably spent the next however-long enjoying their life and spending their money, and there's nothing wrong with that either. And now there's not much inheritance left because what's not already spent will go on care home fees, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that either.

You are not selfish. He has been assuming for a long time that he would eventually receive an inheritance. He was wrong. That's not your fault. He is irrationally hoping that you will kindly wave a magic wand and make it not be the case any more, because he can't be angry with mum and dad for spending their money, so calling you selfish helps him to process that frustration.

You are fine. Crack on doing what you are doing.

Emotionalsupportviper · 22/05/2023 12:34

rwalker · 22/05/2023 11:47

Yes but in all honesty 1 child sitting pretty in flat given the other 2 end up with nothing

I think the majority of siblings would feel hard done by

Show quote history

This isn't uncommon when the "sitting pretty" sibling has been living in the same building and has don't he lion's share of parental care.