Sibs think we should sell to pay care home fees

[SeriouslyTryadifferentstory]

Context: Victorian semi, converted into two one bed flats by myself and my parents in the '90s. I married and DH and I have continued to live in and own the ground floor flat, with extension and garden (and paid off the bloody mortgage!) , parents owned (paid for outright) and lived in the upper flat. Mum died a decade ago and Dad has recently moved into a care home so his flat has to be sold to pay the fees. DH is also battling a chronic illness.

My brothers (2 of them) think that we should "just sell the whole house and we'll find you "somewhere to live". My Sis is telling them to back off and I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone.

Sorry, just needed to vent.

If it eas the former family home perhaps the borthers soemhow feel the whole home sshould be used to fund dad's care?

However if the OP and her husband bought the flat that was carved out of the former family home then it is hers fair and square and nothing to do with this.

Would the brothers have the same view if the parents had sold this flat to someone outside the family?

Yes but in all honesty 1 child sitting pretty in flat given the other 2 end up with nothing

I think the majority of siblings would feel hard done by

So long as they didn't do it just before needing care (which is deprivation of assets), and this was 25 years ago and involved a mortgage, yes its hers, cannot possibly be disputed in any way shape or form.

Brother is a dick!

I don’t get it either?

why do they think selling your flat too is a good plan?

if your dad needs money for care then the more money the flat/house sells for the more will go in care home fees.

what’s his reasoning for selling your flat as well? Surely it would be two separate sales, proceeds from dads would go to the care home, proceeds from yours are yours….

But, I assume she's been tending to her elderly parents needs, and they havn't been, so thats life!

Quite, even if the OP and her DH decided to sell, their sale would be separate and their money would be theirs for another place, it wouldn't in any way be available to the father or siblings - so I don't really get it.

Well your brother sounds like an absolute dick.

If he is dealing with the sale of your dad's flat, the solicitor will soon set him straight on your flat being none of his business, hopefully 🤞

I think the issue might be that the parents had no intention of splitting the family home into two flats and selling one. They only did it to help OP. So, from the brothers' pov, the parents devalued their asset to help out OP when she needed it. And now that the parents need it, OP isn't 'helping' them. Or, as a PP pointed out, the brothers are starting to think about inheritances and realising what would have been half their inheritance has already gone solely to OP.

I'm not saying the brothers are right - just trying to work out what might be the issues for them.

If they know the legal situation and that's all as it should be then they are just being cheeky fuckers - why I'm not sure as all the money would be your Dads and go on care home fees - so what they think they'd gain but a split in family in unclear.

Half their inheritance hasn't gone to OP though if she paid a fair market rate for the flat when she bought it from their parents. But it seems as though the brother thinks OP did financially benefit (to the detriment of the parents) from buying the bottom flat.

Has your brother said what his intentions are with your ‘sold’ flat. I’m really not understanding this at all. The only thing you have that he seems to think is an issue is your flat’s geography to your parent’s flat. Your flat might as well be two hundred miles away for all the relevance it has to your dad’s care home fees. Your brother sounds like he has no logic or common sense.

It could be argued that the course of action taken in the nineties (eg splitting the fmaily home in to flats and selling one to the OP) enabled the parents to practically and financially remain in the family home longer.

Or, as a PP pointed out, the brothers are starting to think about inheritances and realising what would have been half their inheritance has already gone solely to OP.

OP paid for it, so didn't get any extra inheritance and the money went to the parents. If they'd sold it to a stranger no one would say the stranger took the inheritance.

OP's brothers sound quite mad. Have they confirmed what they want you to do with the money from selling your flat OP? Not that you're going to of course (do not back down!) but are they thinking you will also give up some of the money you get? Selling both flats together (but separate "transactions" since they are separately owned) doesn't sound like it would guarantee more money for the parents' flat.

Your brother sounds horrible OP. Definitely stand your ground.

I suspect he's also bring quite naive about just how much work & cost it takes to convert flats back into a single family home. There have been a number of 'small flat developments' (I.e. whole houses split into flats) on the market near us, and they have been the market for ages, clearly because the development is not cost effective enough for anyone to want to take on!

Do your brothers own any property? If so ask them if they have put it on the market yet.

Presumably the brothers think (figures completely made up) that each flat is worth £200K but the house would sell for £500K, giving the dad an extra £50K to pay for care/go towards inheritance and OP an extra £50K to buy a nicer home.

(Obviously ignoring the considerable costs of recombining the apartments, legal and estate agent fees etc.)

Which isn't actually a bad plan if OP wanted to move. The crucial point is that she doesn't, and once she has said that it ceases to be any concern of the brothers.

unlikely that anyone would want to buy two flats and turn them back into a house now though - unless it was to rent out

Years ago my dp’s sold their house to us as they were moving.
The house was valued and we paid the market price. We saved by not paying agents fees and cheaper legal fees.
Two of my siblings still believe we didn’t pay the full price.
Perhaps these siblings think the same.
Its not their business though.

Does anyone know for sure it would sell for more as two flats/whole house? It wouldn't round here.

I agree. A house might sell for more than two flats, but would it if the buyer had to factor in the cost of renovation work required to make it back into a usable family home? Plus the fact they'd be buying two properties, so paying two sets of fees etc.

It also sounds as if the brothers don't understand how flats are owned. There will be three things that are owned - the freehold, and then the leases of two flats.

The OPs' dad owns the lease of one flat, the OP and her husband owns the lease of the other flat. Who owns the freehold - is it shared? Or owned by one party?

If the whole buiding were put on the market then up to three separate things could be sold - the leases of two flats and the freehold of the building, which potentially have three different owners.

If the OPs lease is sold, even of it was to the same buyer as the father's flat the money will go to the OP - so it won't raise any more money for dad's care home fees.

So say the package was 2 x one bed flats at £400K each then it might raise a total of £800k but £400k of that belongs to the OP, not her father.

So he calls YOU a selfish bitch? The one that is demanding you sell your home to benefit him is calling you a selfish bitch.

My brothers want to sell both flats and split the proceeds 50/50. As I own the bigger flat with its own large garden, I'd effectively be giving money to Dad.

Dad is in his late 90s, has severe dementia among many other health issues and quite honestly could pop off at any moment. Any money he leaves will be split equally 4 ways. So by selling my flat and giving some of the proceeds to Dad I could actually be increasing my brothers inheritance.

Thank you all for your input. Its forced me to think properly about what I want to do, rather than just getting upset about my brothers.

OP, did you and your husband take out the mortgage or was the mortgage taken out in your father's name? Is it possible that you were paying rent equal to the mortgage value? Specifically, who is the titled owner of the property?

Ha ha !