Can my work do this? Ah!

[Workdilemmma]

So I have a new job, and gave notice (4 weeks) to my current job at the beginning of May, in writing to my manager over email. I wrote a letter of resignation and attached it and my manager wrote back and it was accepted etc.

I was told I would hear from HR regarding my left over annual leave/last day etc, but as I hadn’t heard from them I messaged today to ask if all was ok.

Well, it turns out that my manager never gave them my resignation or told them I was leaving- and HR have said that they can only accept my resignation from today’s date and if I was to leave before this, it would have to be out of my remaining annual leave balance.

I am due to finish on Friday, take a weeks annual leave and then start my new job. Can they really make me work four weeks if this wasn’t my fault? And will they take my annual leave balance from me if so?

Btw, our annual leave runs June- July and I’ve only take 3 days- so would be owed a bit I think.

That was going to happen in any case

Im confused as to what the issue is

yes your manager fucked up, but you'll be leaving Friday anyway and the annual leave will have to be paid to you

if your manager hadn't fucked up you'd be leaving anyway on Friday and annual leave would be paid anyway

Check your contract or employee handbook about giving notice. If you have done as you are required to do (i.e. informing your manager in writing is in agreement with company policy), then I would send an email saying the following:

"Per my employment contract, I provided my resignation in writing on XX April 2023. My final day in the office, therefore, is XX May 2023.

According to my records, I have accrued X days annual leave so far this year and have used Y of them, meaning I have Z days owing to me.

I expect to be paid up until XX May 2023 and receive payment for the Z days annual leave owing to me.

I have followed all the terms and conditions of my employment and the fact that Manager didn't forward on my resignation to HR is none of my concern.

If you insist that my resignation date is today and that I am not working my full notice period, resulting in me being paid less than what I am owed, I will have no option but to seek legal advice on the matter."

@Whichnumbers but they are saying they won’t pay her her owed money for the leave she’s owed because she’s in breach of contract for not giving proper notice even though she did.

you have proof you handed in your notice and it was accepted - send that to them in an email and state you are not, as they put it jumping ship. You are requesting that your annual leave is pad for the days you haven't taken

People seem to think company won't be paying OP during the notice period. Nothing OP has posted states this but it seems to be a general assumption for some reason.

All OP has said is company have said she'll have to take the notice period as annual leave.

If company have outright said they are witholding her notice period pay then this absolutely shocking but I don't see anywhere where OP said this.

the annual leave will have to be paid to you

No. It. Won't.

That's the point - they will not pay that as they are using it in lieu if notice (they argue).

Do some people not know what 'in lieu' means?

Tell HR you've checked the ACAS website and found this information concerning annual leave and leaving employment

If you have any accrued holiday entitlement left when you leave your job, your employer must add this holiday pay to your final pay ('payment in lieu').

https://www.acas.org.uk/checking-holiday-entitlement/asking-for-and-taking-holiday

Is this not clear enough for you? From the OP:

Essentially HR are saying that if I leave on Friday, I’ll have jumped ship and they’ll be taken the annual leave accrued to cover the “loss” so essentially I won’t be paid for it.

She will not get paid past Friday. She will not be paid for the 'notice' period. They will use her annual leave in lieu of this and not pay her

Really how many times has it to be said? 🤦🏻‍♀️

The reading comprehension on MN gets worse every day

OP I feel for you and would be pissed. What has your manager said about what is essentially their fuck up?

And thats bollocks

Did you speak to Acas yet?

Speak to ACAS they will advise you, I imagine your employer is in the wrong.

I can’t get over you only having 3 days off in the course of practically a whole holiday year.

It depends on what the company policy is, many will say notify your manager AND HR so if that’s the case where then they are within their rights even though the manager should also have submitted it.

if the company policy says just manager then she can push back.

OP you are right! A lot of people on this thread aren't understanding that if you leave without taking your accrued holiday your employer owes you "holiday pay" in place of the leave not taken. A lot of employers (mine included) don't allow taking of leave during a notice period because leavers are supposed to be focused on a proper handover. So we almost always end up paying a chunk of accrued "holiday pay" on top of the salary due for the notice period. HurryShadow's template message is great. You could add that you have contacted ACAS to ask them to confirm the position. Hopefully HR will swallow their pride and agree with you rather than open a can of worms!

As her original agreement:

Notice period served and paid employment stops on Friday.

She will then be reimbursed for holidays not taken throughout this year.

As per HR's agreement:

Notice period starts today and finishes in three weeks, leaving her two options:

A) According to them she will either have to work those three weeks (and get paid as you rightly said) and THEN be reimbursed for her holidays not taken.
Not fair as she may have committed to the new job already, and doesn't WANT to serve a longer leave period as it has already been accepted by manager that she will leave on Friday.

B) Or still leave on Friday as planned and NOT be reimbursed for her holidays as they will be used to cover the extra weeks that THEY say she should work till.
Not fair as they are then stealing her holiday entitlement.

Bottom line is the OP doesn't WANT to stay and get paid for another three weeks.

I think the forwarded email from manager should clear it up with them, but if not just make sure you get everything in writing, don't speak to them on the phone, just leave on Friday and argue it later, they are not in a position to withhold your entitlement with the evidence you've got.

so essentially I won’t be paid for it.

did they say or write in an email categorically you will not be paid for your annual leave?

Do you have it in writing that they are refusing to pay you for your annual leave ?

She will not get paid past Friday. She will not be paid for the 'notice' period. They will use her annual leave in lieu of this and not pay her

OP - I think you've misunderstood what your HR have said. This doesn't make sense.

I believe they are saying that your notice starts now - and after Friday you will be on annual leave. So you won't get paid for 'unused annual leave'... but you will instead continue to be paid for working there for a further 3 weeks... but you'll be on annual leave (and can start your new job).

If you didn't have loads of accrued leave, that might be a problem, but since you do the end result should be the same.

If it isn't you misunderstanding HR, then it's someone in HR misunderstanding the company policy...

Is this not clear enough for you?

no it wasn't

The only downside is that you'll presumably be paid in arrears as usual, rather than getting the balance when you finish at the end of this week.

So possibly a cash-flow problem?

Assuming you’re in the UK, OP, your employer can’t just take your annual leave as compensation for lack of notice anyway, they’d be in breach of employment law. They are only entitled to money from someone who hasn’t provided agreed notice if they have extra expenses because of it and they’d have to sue you for breach of contract to get that (which they’d obviously loose, because you did provide notice).

It sounds like you’re being pushed around by someone who doesn’t know their job well. If there’s a more senior manager I would email them directly, set out what’s happened, tell them you are being threatened with unlawful retention of your earnings by X and that you’d like them to take proper legal advice and fulfill their obligations under your employment contract. If you don’t get any joy and they end up shorting your final pay, contact ACAS with an eye to taking them to an employment tribunal (hopefully ACAS’s free conciliation service will put them right before it gets to that).

🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

You can't start a new job while being paid for another one. You're incorrect in your interpretation Nordic

That may be what HR means but it means OP is in a worse financial position than she would have been if her manager informed HR when they should have as she would have had the holiday pay (from leave she didn’t use) in her last pay slip

Also if she is technically still working for her current employer, albeit on annual leave, then I doubt she will be able to start her new job as working for two employers at the same time may be an issue, especially with tax

Have you spoken to ACAS? If not do it pronto.

Basically you followed protocol.
Your manager did not.
this sounds like a ‘them’ problem.

I doubt she will be able to start her new job as working for two employers at the same time may be an issue, especially with tax

Exactly.

In order to get paid by the new firm, she needs tax evidence of cessation of her previous role. A P45 usually.

OK... so I've just done some calculations and I think, weirdly, OP will end up being paid half a day more doing it the way HR want to!

On the assumption OP originally handed in her notice on 28/04/2023 resulting in a leaving date of 26/05/2023 and having 20 days annual leave per year.

They're saying she's effectively handed her notice in today, giving a leaving date of 14/06/2023. As a result, she's got closer to the end of the holiday year and actually accrued another half day's annual leave.

I've put the calendars in to Excel and noted the notice period under what OP thinks should happen, versus what HR are saying will happen.

They are suggesting her final date of employment is 14/06/2023, though at that point, based on a 20 day annual leave policy, the last 2 days would be unpaid.

However, OP was expecting to be paid until 25/05/2023 plus receive the balance of untaken holiday, which, again, based on 20 days annual leave, would have been a further 10.5 days. 10.5 days on top of 25/05/2023 takes her to the equivalent of half way through 12/06/2023.

It's long winded, and I apologise if I've bamboozled everyone, but I think, as long as they pay OP for the annual leave she's "taking", she'll be OK.

Yes, HMRC will get confused, but they would do anyway. You won't pay too much tax over the course of the year - it will all come out in the wash.