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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A 23 year old wants to be a stay at home wife?

1000 replies

Ludlow2 · 16/05/2023 07:08

Friend's son had a girlfriend and both are 23.
She was keen to marry. Friend's son not so and his parents agreed.
Told him sort your career out,save up, find somewhere you will live. He agreed.
They split.
Both his parents work. My friend, his mother has always worked full-time and has a side business too. She is a great role model an although she is the breadwinner the father also works considerably hard.
Their children have and will benefit from this. They have also instilled good work ethic in their children too.
The friend's son and his ex girlfriend remained friends. She is keen to be with again and said she is happy.to wait and will continue with her studies maybe get a masters etc. She has then said that after marriage she does not want to work.

She thinks work is a want and not a need?

Obviously son Friend's son has run for the hills.
He did tell her it is impossible to survive on one income bla bla. But she just responded with we can move to a cheaper area and I'm not materlistic?

Im.just surprised at this attitude.

The girl's father left the family (Mother and siblings) whilst they were young.
Mother found another partner who comes and goes. Maybe it this why she is craving to be looked after by a man.
However, it sounds all so sad.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
nettie434 · 17/05/2023 09:03

This could have been a really interesting discussion about this new trend of young girls wanting a very different lifestyle to what is the norm (I.E a Tik Tok trend) but instead it’s been the same argument that has happened multiple times before

I completely agree with you, womencanlift!

TheyAreMyBhunasPete · 17/05/2023 09:09

Womencanlift · 17/05/2023 08:52

You are absolutely right. 90% of posts on this thread are nothing to do with the original OP which is about a young woman who wants her partner to fund her lifestyle choice. Absolutely nothing to do with being a stay at home parent

But posters have completely derailed the conversation and made it yet another thread about SAHM vs Working Mums and took offence when posts about the original OP have been made by thinking it’s about them

This could have been a really interesting discussion about this new trend of young girls wanting a very different lifestyle to what is the norm (I.E a Tik Tok trend) but instead it’s been the same argument that has happened multiple times before

Yes agreed 100%! No issues with being a SAHM. I've just gone back to work after 4 years and it was a bloody hard 4 years. But this isn't that.

ToK1 · 17/05/2023 09:10

It's the same as young people thinking being an influencer is aspirational.

Robinni · 17/05/2023 09:11

Theelephantinthecastle · 17/05/2023 06:32

@Robinni - on your SAHM Vs working mother calculations, there are a couple of big less easily quantified things:

  1. The mother on 30k can get a mortgage - the SAHM on benefits won't be able to and the part time NMW job isn't going to get much.

Sometimes the SAHM will get the house in the divorce settlement or more of it but, if you read the divorce board, you can see that that isn't always the case. Not least because there isn't always enough equity in the house. But also because sometimes the ex goes for 50:50 with the kids

Sometimes there will be a mesher order and so it's fine until the kids are 18 but not afterwards which brings me onto..

  1. The 30k mother is enrolled in a workplace pension most likely - yes the SAHM will have likely got a share of the husband's pension but she won't be continuing to build up her own post divorce to the same tune
  1. This will vary of course but the 30k mother is much more likely to be able to get promoted and earn more than a former SAHM in a minimum wage job.

When I look at divorce board threads, I don't see many where the OP is deeply regretting having a good job, I do see a lot where the OP is panicking about a much reduced lifestyle following being a SAHM for years

But not many people are the averages. It's different if you have a qualification that makes it easier to re enter the workforce. I earn £80k (despite having two kids, one in school, no easy infants here) so there is no question that I would be better off post divorce than if I were a SAHM

@Theelephantinthecastle

Proposal announced in 2022 to allow housing benefit to be included as income for mortgage purposes. Not sure if it will come to fruition or if it’s been scrapped, would take a while to roll out.

https://www.mortgagesolutions.co.uk/news/2022/06/09/boris-johnson-to-extend-right-to-buy-and-allow-housing-benefit-for-mortgage-payments-reports/

The SAHM can retrain or take on a career post split to get a pension. And will still have full state pension (which is often reduced by private eg teachers). The minimum wage job is simply something that can be taken on to allow short term survival.

I have a friend who is doing this now having been an SAHM and left due to abuse. Working straightforward part time job until she can buy again/toddler in preschool as it works out better (hours are what she needs, no childcare costs, lots of UC). She’s going to do a further postgrad while in this situation and then go back to work full time.

Not all SAHM are uneducated with no experience in the workplace - some have several degrees and a lot of experience prior to marriage. They later decide to stay at home with the kids and depend on DH.

My comments were solely to dispel the myth that a SAHM/W dependent on DH would be in a desperate situation financially if to split from him. She’d be in virtually the same position as the average working woman within weeks.

Whether SAHM have been living with high earner DH and fret about giving up their lifestyle is neither here nor there. They will not be in dire straits. And a working mother would similarly have quite major lifestyle adjustments to come to terms with upon splitting with a partner…. So I don’t quite get your point.

As you can see income distribution is a bell shaped curve with the majority earning in and around the £500pw mark https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11894303/amp/Where-does-income-Britains-earners.html

I wasn’t saying that a SAHM would be in a better or comparable position to ALL women in the event of divorce.

Have a look at where your weekly income puts you in the graph above…. It isn’t typical.

Again, my point was - for the average woman, her financial position post split would not be that dissimilar to a SAHM post split….

So there is no need for all the melodrama and fear mongering…. SAHM will survive quite happily.

Boris Johnson to extend Right to Buy and allow housing benefit for mortgage payments – reports - Mortgage Solutions

Prime Minister Boris Johnson (pictured) is expected to announce a raft of housing reforms, including extending Right to Buy and allowing people to use housing benefit to pay a mortgage.

https://www.mortgagesolutions.co.uk/news/2022/06/09/boris-johnson-to-extend-right-to-buy-and-allow-housing-benefit-for-mortgage-payments-reports/

5128gap · 17/05/2023 09:14

InceyWinceySpidy · 17/05/2023 08:19

Amen.

It's really sad isn't it. Some people define worth by the presence of a payslip.

I provide financial advice to a women's charity (there's a group of us, lawyers, accountants, etc) who provide free advice to young women starting businesses.

But, that doesn't count. I don't have a paper round to boot.

I genuinely don't even think they can hear how ridiculous they sound. I just stopped bothering trying to explain, they just come back with basic and ill thought out scenarios, presented as "Ta daaaa, what about this eh? Can't answer that eh?"

And unfortunately, no, I can't answer, not through inability, but I no longer have the patience, nor Crayola, to do so.

Straw man. You responded to my post about women who work who are sufficiently wealthy that pay is not their motivation, so its quite clear I was talking about work in the sense of meaningful occupation rather than a means of income generation. Of course the voluntary work you describe above counts as this. But, respectfully, I have no more than a passing interest in what you personally do with your time (it has somewhat dominated the thread already). My interest lay more in your argument that 80% of women would do similar given the chance. Which I believe unfairly misrepresents the position of women.
You suppose the poll to indicate 80% of respondants would prefer unemployment. I disagree. I believe it indicates that 80% of women are in work that doesn't suit their lifestyles; and that the optimum resolution to that is not to opt out and let the men get on with it, but to explore and address the reasons why work isn't working for so many. If indeed the poll is correct.

SerafinasGoose · 17/05/2023 09:27

5128gap · 17/05/2023 06:39

You misunderstand me.
We are both extrapolating, are we not? We have no idea whether the majority of women would choose to work or not as we haven't asked them, so we are each drawing our conclusions based on the evidence available. I from what I see of the choices made by women who genuinely are in the position to choose, you from your little poll.
Your little poll shows that in a theoretical, untested situation the majority would be content with a life without work. My point is that, make that reality and not an imaginary lifestyle on MN, real life women actually don't typically choose that.
However you seem very invested in extracting envy for your lifestyle, so you can of course believe 80% of women would rather live your life than their's if it pleases you.

@5128gap. I'm catching up with this thread as of yesterday. There's a lot more on it, but I find your points interesting as they're picking up on a few persistent themes. Most persistent of all is the constant digression into meaningless statistics. This is a straw man. First, it doesn't matter what 'choices' other women make. It doesn't affect any of us personally, unless there's a quantifiable social disadvantage to making a choice that isn't feminist. In those cases, I might decide to put the needs of my family above that of greater society. It's only human.

Further, if '80% of all women' made the same decisions as mine, it doesn't validate them any more than the 20% figure suggests I'm somehow 'wrong'. That line of reasoning is ridiculous. It's ridiculous because it's only ever speculative. We can't know the variables: whether working full-time, 0.5 FTE, or not at all is influenced by other factors: mental or physical illness or disability, financial constraints, a desire for independence outside the home, profession vs. job, whether we love our work, hate it, or more realistically, love some aspects of it and hate others.

Barmy. It's completely subjective and not a quantitative picture.

Which brings us onto 'freedom of choice'. It very, very rarely is, hence the scare quotes. No one makes choices in a social vacuum. Everyone has to do things they don't like or want. It's a fundamental lesson we learn from our first years that life isn't always fair, and that everyone's answerable to something or someone. 'Choice' isn't a feminist goal for the very good reason that it's nebulous, and society is structured to make some choices very difficult indeed and others the only realistic option. Usually this applies if you're a woman. The aim of feminism is to level that playing field; only then will a somewhat 'freer' choice be an even remote possibility.

As for 'if work is so great why do people retire', I thought we'd already scraped the barrel of faulty exercises in logic until I saw this little gem. People slow down. They're not as sharp. Some jobs become more physically difficult. In my own profession, people retire from the daily, active elements of the job but it's not in the least unusual to see them pursuing the research side until they're fit to drop. I saw a lovely Emeritus who's long-since retired at a conference only last week.

As to the snide aside of being 'envious', the PPs who are posting this are evidently the type who think in this vein, or who believe what other women do is somehow a reflection on them. Those people are very obvious from this thread. I, for one, can't imagine a woman in this country I'd less want to swap places with than Kate Middleton.

TedMullins · 17/05/2023 09:27

We live in a capitalist society. Everyone needs money to pay for their basic needs. Therefore if you’re not working, it means someone else is paying for you. That’s just the reality. Delude yourself all you like that work is “a choice“ but it really isn’t, is it? Can single people just “choose” not to work in the absence of an independent income like a trust fund?

So you’re either working or you’re being funded by someone else. That’s not a value judgement, that’s just the facts. I know I personally would feel like a scrounger and yes, pretty inadequate, if I had to rely on someone else for all my financial needs. So I absolutely would judge someone with no children who isn’t working simply because they don’t fancy it.

Somehow I think opinions would be quite different if we were talking about a young man who’d just announced his intention to get married and live off his wife.

SerafinasGoose · 17/05/2023 09:38

Some people define worth by the presence of a payslip.

And a great many people don't. I felt like this I'd have gone into medicine or corporate business. I'm a professional whose profession is notorious for paying its (very highly qualified and specialist) staff the lowest salaries in Europe.

It isn't about the money for me, albeit I wouldn't do the admin and more physically/time demanding aspects of my job for free. I do this work because I want to cut my brain on something really satisfying. My aspirations are nothing short of world expertise in a specific field, of being an excellent and original researcher and writer, and being known and respected for being really bloody good at what I do. And, whilst I have no aspirations to owning the biggest and best house in the village, I do want a cushion in life in the event that difficult things happen. Having seen relatives die to young of cancer, I believe I owe my child at least this much.

These snide swipes at people who decide for whatever reason to pursue a career are really unedifying. People who are happy with their lot in life IME don't tend to do this.

SouthLondonMum22 · 17/05/2023 09:39

@TedMullins

Somehow I think opinions would be quite different if we were talking about a young man who’d just announced his intention to get married and live off his wife.

Absolutely. There's a reason why men are called cocklodgers in this scenario but there's no term for women. It's more acceptable for women to not provide financially because we are all raised from birth in a society where men = providers and women = care for children and the house.

ToK1 · 17/05/2023 09:40

@Robinni

Funny that you think the sahm will survive quite happily while retraining and bagging themselves a decent wage but yet you think the wm would drown under the stress of it all

AllegraWalterJones · 17/05/2023 09:41

Womencanlift · 17/05/2023 08:52

You are absolutely right. 90% of posts on this thread are nothing to do with the original OP which is about a young woman who wants her partner to fund her lifestyle choice. Absolutely nothing to do with being a stay at home parent

But posters have completely derailed the conversation and made it yet another thread about SAHM vs Working Mums and took offence when posts about the original OP have been made by thinking it’s about them

This could have been a really interesting discussion about this new trend of young girls wanting a very different lifestyle to what is the norm (I.E a Tik Tok trend) but instead it’s been the same argument that has happened multiple times before

Exactly!
I get that not everyone is 'down with the kids' but the #tradwife trend is all over social media.
A few PP have mention it but have been completely overshadowed by the mummy warriors.

Which have links to to other less savoury movements...

https://www.vice.com/en/article/3ak8p8/online-rise-of-trad-ideology

Behind the Rise of the Online ‘Tradwife’ Movement

Trad ideology doesn't just extend to 1950s housewife videos. It also has sinister connections with right-wing extremism, experts say.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/3ak8p8/online-rise-of-trad-ideology

ToK1 · 17/05/2023 09:44

@SerafinasGoose

👌

InceyWinceySpidy · 17/05/2023 09:44

5128gap · 17/05/2023 09:14

Straw man. You responded to my post about women who work who are sufficiently wealthy that pay is not their motivation, so its quite clear I was talking about work in the sense of meaningful occupation rather than a means of income generation. Of course the voluntary work you describe above counts as this. But, respectfully, I have no more than a passing interest in what you personally do with your time (it has somewhat dominated the thread already). My interest lay more in your argument that 80% of women would do similar given the chance. Which I believe unfairly misrepresents the position of women.
You suppose the poll to indicate 80% of respondants would prefer unemployment. I disagree. I believe it indicates that 80% of women are in work that doesn't suit their lifestyles; and that the optimum resolution to that is not to opt out and let the men get on with it, but to explore and address the reasons why work isn't working for so many. If indeed the poll is correct.

Well that's your prerogative, to disagree with a vote on MN, because it's not the way you would have "voted" . Doesn't mean it's false, or made up. It's just people, voting, with results that don't suit your narrative . I can't help that.

Robinni · 17/05/2023 09:48

SouthLondonMum22 · 17/05/2023 07:32

I actually never stated what hours my DC attends nursery, you just made an assumption. Just like you made an assumption that I'll be having more children.

DC doesn't wake up until 7am so definitely not in nursery 30 minutes later. His nursery is actually 7am-6pm but he is never there as early as 7am and is always home in time for his 6pm bath.

DH and I are both in senior roles and can be incredibly flexible if needed and depending what is going on at work that particular day.

@SouthLondonMum22

Firstly, the women I’ve known are not working less hours/being SAHMs because of stereotypical gender roles that they personally wish to carry out…

They are taking the back seat because

a) Most of their husbands have more highly paid professions or get paid more for doing a comparable job!! Simply because they have a penis. Which is a genuine issue.
b) The costs of childcare are prohibitive and they want to be with their children.
c) Due to 2-3years maternity plus all the faff in between they have lost some traction in career progression, DH has been able to plough on so after several years pregnancy/infant disruption it doesn’t make financial sense to demand DH takes the back seat.

I think you’re splitting hairs about the nursery. The fact is the opinion is there to place kids in childcare from 7am-6pm 5 days per week. 7.30-6, 9-5 it isn’t a lot of difference.

Work becomes less feasible whenever they go to school, there are breakfast and after school clubs but they won’t normally do the homework with them. If you have a relative or a nanny that you trust implicitly with your child’s education and wellbeing needs then potentially things can go on unimpeded but then you aren’t that involved with your own child/children.

Good that you have the flexibility - we have had 6 bloody bank hols/staff days this month alone. One DC took chicken pox so that was the mandatory 10 days off school in March, back to school a week and straight into the 2 week Easter break in April, then the other DC took a gastric bug and was off a week…. That’s 5-6wks leave in 3 months.

SerafinasGoose · 17/05/2023 09:48

@AllegraWalterJones - I'm one of the PPs who's raised this upthread but unfortunately some posters have digressed into the usual 'all about me' tit-for-tat that can't see beyond their own narrow worldview. It's beyond tedious to read.

Another PP mentioned that this is a 20-YO trend that's making a concerning comeback, and in a social climate in which misogyny is being increasingly legitimized. I'd not be at all surprised to discover that that trend emanates from the Evangelical, alt right culture in the US, and would be very interested to know who is funding it, propagating it, and disseminating it.

It's also interesting that this new resurgence follows hard on the heels of fourth-wave feminism and #MeToo. Almost as though to every action is an equal and opposite reaction.

Some women have spoken up against men's 'trad' domination and said 'No'. Those bitches must be put back in their boxes, toute suite.

ToK1 · 17/05/2023 09:49

@AllegraWalterJones

Every time we inch closer to a semblance of equality there is the inevitable pushback and reinforcing of the status quo

People romanticise the good old that never really existed

ToK1 · 17/05/2023 09:50

@Robinni

Those things you've listed are gender stereotypes

SerafinasGoose · 17/05/2023 09:51

ToK1 · 17/05/2023 09:49

@AllegraWalterJones

Every time we inch closer to a semblance of equality there is the inevitable pushback and reinforcing of the status quo

People romanticise the good old that never really existed

You've put it more succinctly than I did.

Yes, I think that's precisely it.

AllegraWalterJones · 17/05/2023 09:53

SerafinasGoose · 17/05/2023 09:48

@AllegraWalterJones - I'm one of the PPs who's raised this upthread but unfortunately some posters have digressed into the usual 'all about me' tit-for-tat that can't see beyond their own narrow worldview. It's beyond tedious to read.

Another PP mentioned that this is a 20-YO trend that's making a concerning comeback, and in a social climate in which misogyny is being increasingly legitimized. I'd not be at all surprised to discover that that trend emanates from the Evangelical, alt right culture in the US, and would be very interested to know who is funding it, propagating it, and disseminating it.

It's also interesting that this new resurgence follows hard on the heels of fourth-wave feminism and #MeToo. Almost as though to every action is an equal and opposite reaction.

Some women have spoken up against men's 'trad' domination and said 'No'. Those bitches must be put back in their boxes, toute suite.

Exactly.
A lot of people can't see beyond their own noses, and their own little lives.
A lot of these women do seem to be quite religious. And after developments such as the rolling out of anti-abortion legislation this is a general development that is very concerning, beyond any one woman's choice to stay at home, or otherwise.

@ToK1 preciesly.

Men just don't like their domination being challenged. And left to our own devices we are happier without them, we don't even need a 'partner' to have babies anymore so really, what are they there for?

Instead of raising their standards they just want to push us back down again.

SouthLondonMum22 · 17/05/2023 09:54

@SerafinasGoose

It isn't about the money for me, albeit I wouldn't do the admin and more physically/time demanding aspects of my job for free. I do this work because I want to cut my brain on something really satisfying. My aspirations are nothing short of world expertise in a specific field, of being an excellent and original researcher and writer, and being known and respected for being really bloody good at what I do. And, whilst I have no aspirations to owning the biggest and best house in the village, I do want a cushion in life in the event that difficult things happen. Having seen relatives die to young of cancer, I believe I owe my child at least this much.

I agree with this too. The money is part of it to me because having a high salary does give me a sense of achievement and I enjoy the feeling of providing financially to my family as well as the security of earning my own income but it's about so much more to me.

The way it gets my brain working how nothing else can and the rush I feel when I solve a problem

How it is wonderful for my mental health, those 12 weeks of maternity leave were not great for my mental health

Chasing promotions and how it feels when I'm successful

Showing young women that it is possible to succeed in STEM roles and at a senior level

etc

I love so many things and do not work just for the money, not by a long shot. I don't have to work for financial reasons. I work because I want to work.

ToK1 · 17/05/2023 09:55

@AllegraWalterJones

Unfortunately in a lot of cases it's other women doing the pushing

They can't fathom that other women genuinely don't want to be like them and feel threatened so lash out

Snowfairyxx · 17/05/2023 09:55

RandyMiceDavies · 16/05/2023 07:31

There are men out there who would welcome this- she just needs to find one of them. Sadly, such men are generally controlling arseholes and she’ll have no resources if she wants to leave, so it’s not a great plan.

This, she either needs to find a fairly rich man who wants a house wife but will prob be a bit of a dick. Or find someone with less money and get a council house and benefits. She may have some problems when she comes to retire with no pension.
She would be better looking for an older rich guy if it is what she wants, not sure she will have a happy marriage unless she is lucky but won't have to work. Hopefully the relationship doesn't end leaving her vulnerable. Very silly of her.

AllegraWalterJones · 17/05/2023 09:58

ToK1 · 17/05/2023 09:55

@AllegraWalterJones

Unfortunately in a lot of cases it's other women doing the pushing

They can't fathom that other women genuinely don't want to be like them and feel threatened so lash out

Yes.
Honestly a lot of 'judging' about parenting comes from women. Men do not give a shit, they don't even notice.

A society set up for working women allows those who want to stay at home, to do so. But not the other way around. Logically speaking, on a society level the former should be supported!

Robinni · 17/05/2023 10:01

ToK1 · 17/05/2023 07:34

@Walkaround

I'm genuinely baffled by that.

Can you show me which post you've taken that 'subtext' from?

@Robinni

I discounted savings because your average woman on 30k will not have much. 25% of uk households have 0. The average per year is about 2 grand. And I couldn't find anything to say whether this was kept or spent

And that figure is skewed by the few who can afford lots of savings and pensions

Anyway, I take your point that a split can leave anyone vulnerable. However having your own source of income and not relying on the state unless necessary is always going to be the most sensible plan

@ToK1

An abused woman who is in employment and has access to money will hoard it to enable her to leave - it is what they are often advised to do to “escape”. Without realising it will disqualify then for MTBs.

For me, I agree that having own income is important. For others they are entitled to choose what they want to do and it’s really not my business or place to be judgemental.

I’m very happy for the SAHW/Ms, for the full time career women, those who work part time, carers. The lot of them. As long as it is their choice and what works for them. There is no right or wrong.

When you get somebody who wants to live off the state where nothing actually wrong in terms of circumstances/disability… that’s where I draw the line.

For a woman being taken care of by her husband who is willing and has sufficient funds. Their life their choice.

ToK1 · 17/05/2023 10:08

@Robinni

Yes its their life choice but its not free of value judgement any more than any other life choice is.

I'm not sure why people think it should be.

Even the phrase 'taken care of by her husband' makes me shudder

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