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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not want people to judge those who recieve benefits????

572 replies

TidyTink · 18/02/2008 21:21

Im a single mother of one,

i was working up until my DD (3) was born, rather than take a part time job that i knew i would always be stuck in i decided to get to college and study asubject that will lead me to a very hard working and well paid job so that i can fully support my DD in the future.

I hate recieving benefits and cannot wait untill i have finished my degree

Once i start at work i will be paying enough taxes in the future to more than cover the benefits ive recieved over the few yrs.

So why does everyone assume your a complete waste of space?? not all of us take advantage of the system!!!!

OP posts:
dal21 · 21/02/2008 08:19

This info appeared in the Evening Standard last night - rather apt I thought.

In 2006 non doms added 16.6 billion to the economy, £3.9 billion in VAT.
Ok - this isnt looking at what UK based high tax earners are contributing to the coffers, but it still shows just how much comes into the British economy from this handful of people.

It is all well and good to talk about a fair society etc. - but if you want to see these people pay more taxes; then they will up and move as Xenia has said to countries with more favourable tax regimes.

The answer doesnt lie in putting more taxes on the high earners; or in closing loopholes. (this is going back to posts yesterday evening)

Judy1234 · 21/02/2008 09:00

Indeed. Brown has shot himself in the foot over this. People like this with various homes over the globe just move. It's not hard. I don't rule it out myself either as the children get bigger as a lot of what I do I can do from anywhere.

needmorecoffee · 21/02/2008 09:05

thats a great quote. They'd insure disabled and elderly had decent money and care and hospitals were clean etc etc
wow.

Elasticwoman · 21/02/2008 09:24

What is more iniquitous than people being stuck on benefits in the poverty trap, is people working on slave wages and having to be subsidised by the state - who is thereby subsidising the employer! The minimum wage has gone some way to addressing that, but it still happens.

needmorecoffee · 21/02/2008 09:24

Xenia said and I choked on my coffee 'The basic rate band bit is the small bit that doesn't count. All marginal income over that I pay the higher rate at.'

That 'small bit' is £40 grand!!!! Most people never comes close to earning that much a year.
I never had any problem paying tax out of dh's wage because it was a saftey net and when dd was born brain damaged and I got dx with MS it beacme our safety net. Thank god for a decent society or we would have starved on the streets or dd killed at birth as a 'useless mouth' like the nazi's did to disabled people.
Why is it the richer you are the more you resent helping out those less fortunate (apart from Bill Gates who does alot ofor charity) or think they don't work as hard as you do. Midwives and nurses work very long hard hours yet they are paid a fraction of what accountants get. I know which category has helped more in my life. Same with farmers, dawn till late yet many are on the edge but if they didn't grow our food we'd ALL die.
There really is an attitude that your human worth is related to how much money you earn and how many shiny consumer goods you own (and therefore buggering up the planet with consumerist greed). Its let to this credit card living as poeple think they are worth only what they are wearing or plasma TV's or what have you. Worth is no longer measured in your caring, baking a cake for an old lady, volunteering with a stressed out mum (Homestart) or working with disabled children. The human things.
I despair.

mrsruffallo · 21/02/2008 09:37

It is a self esteem thing- some people can only feel good if they are telling everyone how wealthy they are - hence showing off that she considers 40 grand a small wage and he dc are privately educated- fine, that is a personal choice- but to have to continually rubbish all stae schools is another example of this.
It is very boring, like having a boastful relative over for Christmas

dal21 · 21/02/2008 09:42

'There really is an attitude that your human worth is related to how much money you earn and how many shiny consumer goods you own'

I dont think that is the attitude here at all, and i havent read one post on here that suggestes that. But there are some people motivated by money - and they go into professions/ become entrepreneurs to earn high salaries. That is their choice and want, what is wrong with that? They are not suggesting they are better than people who make different choices. And what is wrong with them begrudging paying a high level of tax also?? It is their money - and regardless of how much they earn, who are we to say that they should have to part with a bigger portion of their money than people on lower salaries. It is arrogant to assume that they somehow need that money less simply because they earn more?

dal21 · 21/02/2008 09:44

mrsr - you will actually find that a lot of wealthy people dont go on about those things and it isnt remotely linked to self esteem.

where on earth do these generalisations come from?

mrsruffallo · 21/02/2008 09:47

.....What makes you think I don't know any wealthy people? If you read my post properly you will see it is referring to a particular type of person not all wealthy people who are as diverse as anyone else.
I do not bow to your superior knowledge of wealthy people but find yoour response quite amusing

dal21 · 21/02/2008 09:51

i am glad i amuse you and i certainly wouldnt expect anyone to bow down to anything i write as i don't profess that it comes from any superior place.

i also find it mildly amusing that on a thread about someone writing about being judged based on being on benefits - there seems to be a lot of judging of high net individuals.

there are obviously diverse individuals in all walks of life (as you have said) - regardless of income. high earners arent all shallow, materialistic, amoral money grubbers who sit on their shiny thrones peering with disdain upon the less fortunate. although some of those do exist granted.

mrsruffallo · 21/02/2008 09:53

We agree than dal

NumberSix · 21/02/2008 09:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mrsruffallo · 21/02/2008 09:55

no.6 -

Judy1234 · 21/02/2008 10:22

Actually I'm motivated because I adore the work and would do it even if I won the lottery which tends to be what most people are like who do love work and do well at it rather than the money, hence so many who sell businesses and then start up again. It's the work and fun of the business that they love more than the money, although the money is great too, I wouldn't deny that.

Kathyis6incheshigh · 21/02/2008 10:28

"It is arrogant to assume that they somehow need that money less simply because they earn more? "

Eh? Actually the more money you EARN the smaller the fraction of your wealth that you actually NEED.
Nothing to do with arrogance. If anyone thinks that they NEED more than, say, a £100 000 salary (as opposed to want it) then they've got some serious reality problems.

dal21 · 21/02/2008 10:42

why do they have serious reality problems?

Kathyis6incheshigh · 21/02/2008 10:45

Because no-one needs that much money! It's nice to have, but you don't need it.

TidyTink · 21/02/2008 10:45

Quattro
how dare you say that people shouldnt have children untill they support them!!!

Wat the f*

i was working at a solicitors for 3 yrs when i fell pregnant, i was also living with my then partner (a manager at RM)
i was fully ableto support my child, untill my then partner suddenly decided that he didnt want this child, that i was to get rid of her!!!!!!

Well then i was left with no shitting choice was i?????????

I now live back with my mum and going to college/uni was the only way to go because i would like to get a f**king morgage some day!!!

Youve infuriated me

OP posts:
dal21 · 21/02/2008 10:52

fair enough kathy. am still thinking on that one, trying to figure out if i agree or not. brain going slow today.

Squiffy · 21/02/2008 10:55

As a banker myself, my favourite bit so far has been the "avaricious, deceitful, mendacious, amoral, irresponsible parasites that prey on the vulnerable to line their own pockets"

But it's too long for me to use it as my MN name

Seriously, the level of vitriol here is getting a bit OTT. Every level in society has loathesome individuals and I personally would prefer to spend an evening down my Dad's social centre any day of the week than in the company of some of my hugely arrogant colleagues. Yes we do get paid much more than we morally contribute to society but we live in a democracy, not a meritocracy. If you want to change that, then politics is the field to be in. From a 'democratic' standpoint high wage earners will earn whatever the market pays them and will follow the market if it goes overseas for tax reasons. the market wage is fixed by a simple formula whcih matches your contribution to the company vs your costs to the company, with a quick check at the levels of supply & demand. I am very lucky to be in an industry which pays well (especially as I grew up in a council house) btu I don't pretend that I have any moral superiority here.

But that doesn't mean that I hand over the moral highground to anyone else either.

FWIW,

(1) the US crisis wouldn't have happened without mortgage brokers standing in the middle and there are a lot of legal cases going on in the US because of misrepresentaiton and the like. These brokers are certainly not the bankers at the top of the tree - more like the ambulance chasers than anything. Although of course there were plenty of Bankers who were also not entirely blameless.

(2) When 100% mortgages and 125% mortgages were expanded here in the UK, it was in direct response to the problems that young people had getting their feet on the housing ladder. I can't remember the Daily Mail moaning at the time about the low interest rates that made these deals affordable, nor about the fact that without these deals people would simply never have been able to buy their houses.

(3) There is a whole 'mis-selling' explosion that will no doubt come in due course over 'interest only' mortgages. If you've got one you have been sold a duff. Just somethign to bear in mind - lots of turmoil still to come, and many people with high % loan-to-value loans and with interest only loans will have helped excacerbate the problem, by over-reaching. It's not just the bankers you know.

(4) When Barings went bust the media went wild at the government for not saving it, and it subsequently led to the loss of UK ownership of many financial institutions and a lot of job rationalisation. Compare that with Northern Rock, where the incentive behind the govt is NOT to save the arse of bankers, but to save jobs (albeit underlying that decision is politics, not economics). Sounds to me like you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

A final thought - be careful what you wish for. The surging housing market has been met with joy and glee by most of the (houseowning) nation. There is NOTHING nice about properties going up unless you are planning on downsizing or dying. Releasing equity sounds nice but you are just borrowing today to buy stuff that you expect to pay back tomorrow. It is still borrowing on the never never no matter how nice it sounds. And falling prices are actually GOOD if you want to trade up because the next house becomes within reach. At the heart of this crisis is greed driven at all levels - from people wanting to get on the ladder to people wanting to trade, to idiots like Carol Vordeman and those debt consolidaiton firms who made it possible, and, yes, to financiers who responded to demand, and created ever more complicated routes to supply it.

Life is never as simple as the Daily Mail makes out. Those of us who earn good salaries need to whisper 'there but for the grace of god go I' every night to stay real. And those criticising them should pause before letting fly with the vitriol.

suey2 · 21/02/2008 10:59

ouch. apology required, i think quattro.
in answer to the need it/ dont need it thing i think we all have to accept that we have different preceptions of need. Let's face it, need is shelter, food and water and most of us would say we need more than that.
To buy a house in central london will cost probably 1 to 3 million. the mortgage on 1 million is about 5 grand a month. about the 100,000 gross salary you say is unreasonable to say you need. Why not live outside? well, if you are regularly working 12+ hour days you would never see your children (in my dh's case). To be able to see your children is definitely a need for us.

Kathyis6incheshigh · 21/02/2008 11:16

Interesting Suey, so what do you think the people who can't afford the £1 million houses do? Do you think they don't need them in the same way as you do?

suey2 · 21/02/2008 11:18

i think that they generally don't work 12 + hours per day and most weekends, therefore can live a little further out and still see their kids.

winniethewino · 21/02/2008 11:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kathyis6incheshigh · 21/02/2008 11:22

I think you'd be very surprised by the reality of many people's lives, Suey.

I have been amazed on this thread by the various assumptions by better-paid people that they work so much harder than everyone else. IME in all classes there are people who work ridiculous hours, it's not the special preserve of either the very well paid or the very poorly paid.