To think a secondary school choir rejecting an 11 year old based on their voice is horrible?

[tigerdrew]

Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc

DD tried out for the school choir which is done by audition so obviously she was aware there was some kind of judging involved and so was I but I do think rejecting a year 7 into something they are interested in trying is harsh, especially when it's hard enough for year 7s.

AIBU to think a school choir should just be for whoever is interested? When kids are all singing in a group they do sound the same anyway! Obviously maybe solos could be kept for the particularly talented but I'm honestly just a bit sad and even annoyed.

Yes! Music is absolutely for everyone.

But not everyone can perform music.

And I believe that anyone can be taught how to sing.

As anyone can be taught to play an instrument. I love music. I have a grade 8 at violin. Am I any good at the violin? Not really, I don't have what it takes. I can do it, but I can't 'really 'play the violin', it's just not there for me in the way it is for proper musicians that have a passion for the violin.

I actually prefer singing and don't have a bad ear. Am I a great singer? No. Even though I understand and appreciate music, and can hold a note, I even have a bit of personality in the way I sing.

I'm just someone that enjoys singing.

No-one's ever wanted me in their choir.

My school had a choir (anyone could turn up) and a ‘senior vocal group’ (invite only). That seemed to work really well. I do think everyone should have the opportunity to sing in a group.

They have to audition to be in the choir at my kids primary school, which is for year 3 and upwards, they don't all get in as they need to be at a certain standard to enter competitions etc. Unfortunately it's a life lesson as others have said, and I genuinely think dealing with rejection earlier in life makes it easier.

Agree.
Telling them their perfect and shielding them from reality just creates confusion for them as they become adults.

True tone deafness - when you can't be recognise one tune from another let alone sing it - is rare. It's like a form of amnesia apparently. Most people simply get told they can't sing before they have learned to pitch. My husband is like this, has a reasonable voice but never practices so is not a singer and never improves. Yet he has excellent rhythm and an amazing ear for music, much better than me who had masses of musical education.

I say singing is like running. There are some cases when people literally can't do it, but they are rare. Mostly we say "can't" to mean "cannot do it in a way that is judged by others to be good enough". I can't run but you can better your bottom dollar if someone shouted "bomb" I'd manage a sprint!

I took lessons as an adult to learn how to use my voice effectively and I wish I had done so as a young teen. Pitch and tone are important to a singer and if the OPs daughter has pitch but hasn't learned tone or style of singing then I can see why she has been rejected. It feels harsh at that age, but this is her learning opportunity.

I go to my daughter's school to run a singing club for her year. That is all about fun and learning, no auditions. They are eight years old so we have an open enthusiastic ethos. It's hard but that's what we chose. I wouldn't expect that ethos at a secondary school level.

That’s how choirs work though, and pretty much everything in the music world. My son didn’t get in the choir in year 7 but re auditioned in year 8 and got in and stayed in until he left school. He’s now at a conservatoire and the same applies- he auditioned for the orchestra and didn’t get in, he’ll try again next September.
All kids aren’t good at everything so why do they need to think they are? They’re all good at something and that’s the thing to be celebrated.

That's a tiny proportion of people, hardly disproves the point. We evolved to sing, it's how information was passed down, go back a few generations and ordinary people would sing together without it being at all competitive.

Bollocks to the dreary school choir.
Find your daughter an inclusive extra curricular performance group away from school.
There are plenty of excellent arts organisations out there who are about inclusivity and fun.
Don't let this knock her confidence or interest in music and performance.

If they don’t have a sufficiently large music department with time to run two choirs, I think they should focus their time on running an inclusive choir, rather than an exclusive one.

When I was at primary school we each had to stand up behind our desks and sing a song solo. It was then decided who would be in the choir. I wasn't. And that's the way it was. No idea if anyone was upset by it, but there is no point in your daughter thinking she's a good singer if she isn't.

There are at least a couple of aspects of singing in particular that make exclusivity important. First, it's entry level exposure to music and musicality - pretty much everyone has a voice, anyone can 'sing' in the sense of putting words to a tune. Then there's the health aspect, the awareness of body, posture , breathing it promotes. Then there's the emotional aspect - how intimate and personal our voices are to us. There's something quite uniquely crushing about being told you can't sing.

if resources in a school are such that there aren't enough for both an auditioning and a non-auditioning choir, the latter should have priority. An older, talented student could be given a chance to organise a small chamber ensemble. Pitching (ha) choral singing as an exclusively elite activity that you need to meet a defined standard for is a recipe for putting swathes of future adults off music for life. And then we wonder why people aren't culturally engaged.

O h FFS. In my first line I obviously meant INclusivity.

This is a much better approach. Having parents who fork out for singing lessons shouldn't be a requirement.

I think there's a difference between not being able to sing because the quality of your voice is poor, and not being able to sing in tune.

I have the latter, and I doubt it can be fixed. I can hear the right tune in my head; I can even in a rudimentary way pick out a melody I've heard on a keyboard; but whatever should link my voice to my brain for singing just isn't there so if I sing it comes out as a completely different note.

But singing like PE has many and far reaching benefits. Anyone could join school choir when I went to school. Admittedly a long time ago. I guess if they go in for competitions it might be different?

Why tolerate the mediocre when the pursuit of excellence is what actually gives a true sense of fulfilment and pleasure (to participants and teachers)?

I have run a variety of musical ensembles over many years, including choirs. Some have been all-access and some by audition. The layers of musical subtlety you can add to an auditioned group can be thrilling. The sheer amount of extra work you have to put into an all-access group to get even near similar standards can be overwhelming.

And have you sung in a choir since our did that kill singing for you, aged 7 or whatever, based on someone's else's one minute judgement of you?

Sorry, but no, singers do not all sound the same in a group. I sing in a group of 100 and one rogue voice would stand out among 99 others singing in tune.

To put it into perspective, if you do a maths or georgraphy test in year nine and get a grade D, the teacher doesn't say "Not good enough, give up."

For persistent low performance in Maths, my school would have given remedial lunch hour tuition. For Geography, the child would have been advised not to take the subject in year 10 when choosing GCSE options.

For persistent low performance in History (my "least worst" choice out of a pool of three subjects that I had to choose one of for Year 10), I was kicked off the GCSE. I still had more than enough GCSEs to go to sixth form. I used the time to funnel effort into English, which I was also on track to fail and is an essential subject. Result: I passed English.

Sometimes, being told "no" is the best outcome for the child.

I can see that a lot of people here don’t share my philosophy on music education, and that’s ok.

I will continue to teach music in an inclusive way and see the joy on my students faces when they do their first performance to an audience and receive their first applause. I will smile when the student who was quiet and shy begins chatting and laughing with the others in the choir. I will burn with pride when the student who was apathetic and disillusioned with school performs their first solo.

Music is more than talent. Music is a human process. It is community. It is built into our very being and it is for everybody.

There is time enough to learn resilience in our lives. Let children have a safe space to express themselves, make friends, learn new skills and feel accomplishment.

This is so laughably pompous and misses the point entirely 🤣

There’s usually try outs for the sports teams in secondary too. This isn’t like primary where anyone can go to.

I’ve had 5 children go through secondary and they’ve all had to compete/try out. (4 different secondary schools). I just assumed it was the normal procedure. The school wants the best to represent the school.

No, you lie and tell them they’re going to be the next Rhiannon and start applying for BGT.
What precisely is right about lying to a child about what they’re good at or not good at?

Apparently most people can be taught to sing in tune, even if they start out pretty much tone deaf. The thing is though, I expect that takes quite a bit of individual attention and instruction, which isn't going to be possible for one poor singer in a school choir. If your dd is that keen, get her singing lessons.

It may seem harsh, but by that age children are becoming well aware of tgeir strengths and weaknesses. Schools are generally very keen to encourage students' interest regardless of ability, and like you say, there are no doubt umpteen other clubs she chould join to have a go at things. It doesn't seem that unreasonable to audition for a choir, when the level of ability in one individual will genuinely affect how they sound. Better than letting her join and everyone noticing she's the one who can't sing!

Music is actually extremely competitive (unless it's just a fun choir). A lot of schools have very serious music departments with very well qualified students. At this age a lot of things - dance, music, sports, etc, stop being all just fun and students start to find their niches (and where their talents do and do lie). At 11 my daughter had to audition for very competitive dance schools. It took three years before she was accepted to a top dance school. At this stage this is where those that can hack the future professional environment get sorted. You can still do dance for fun but those who will go on to tertiary study in these areas find it starts to become very selective.

They need to learn that it's okay to be disappointed and feel it, then pick themselves up and try again knowing they may or may not succeed. That's reality.