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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think a secondary school choir rejecting an 11 year old based on their voice is horrible?

612 replies

tigerdrew · 14/05/2023 01:14

Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc

DD tried out for the school choir which is done by audition so obviously she was aware there was some kind of judging involved and so was I but I do think rejecting a year 7 into something they are interested in trying is harsh, especially when it's hard enough for year 7s.

AIBU to think a school choir should just be for whoever is interested? When kids are all singing in a group they do sound the same anyway! Obviously maybe solos could be kept for the particularly talented but I'm honestly just a bit sad and even annoyed.

OP posts:
whitesnowflake · 14/05/2023 07:37

I disagree with you OP and think if a choir is auditioning for singers then they are actually looking for people who can sing. I was in the same position as your DD and didn't make the cut for my school choir either. It's a life lesson and hasn't done me any harm.

AngelineGarcia · 14/05/2023 07:38

Also, is it any different to trying out for a football team? They only let the best players in, with idea of building a winning team rather than a “learning to play” team.

NeedCoffeeNowPlease · 14/05/2023 07:38

Flibbyjibby · 14/05/2023 07:31

I can see that a lot of people here don’t share my philosophy on music education, and that’s ok.

I will continue to teach music in an inclusive way and see the joy on my students faces when they do their first performance to an audience and receive their first applause. I will smile when the student who was quiet and shy begins chatting and laughing with the others in the choir. I will burn with pride when the student who was apathetic and disillusioned with school performs their first solo.

Music is more than talent. Music is a human process. It is community. It is built into our very being and it is for everybody.

There is time enough to learn resilience in our lives. Let children have a safe space to express themselves, make friends, learn new skills and feel accomplishment.

That's fine but there comes a point in the not to distant future (or even at 11 for arts schools that specialise in music) where they have to accept that there can be 300 people competing and auditioning for two places. 298 people are going to miss out. They can't be picked just because they enjoy it or want it.

DysmalRadius · 14/05/2023 07:39

The glee with which some posters have appeared on this thread to suggest that an 11 year old should just 'get singing lessons' or 'become more resilient' after being excluded, by an adult, is truly saddening.

coffeecupsandwaxmelts · 14/05/2023 07:39

YABU.

I was one of three kids in my year who wasn't allowed in the school choir at primary school - it didn't cause me any kind lifelong trauma or "kill my love of music". Not everyone is good at everything and children need to learn that.

Also to a PP who said that schools wouldn't tell children they were rubbish at maths and geography - of course they do. When I was at school anyone who wasn't getting decent marks in optional subjects at Year 9 wouldn't have been allowed to continue them in Year 10.

For subjects like maths, you'd be put in the lower stream where you could only take the foundation paper to make it as easy as possible for you.

If your DD really wants to sing, why not book her into singing lessons?

When I was

Xenia · 14/05/2023 07:39

Most of my children's schools have had a choir for the very good people and one for anyone who wants to join. 3 of my children won music scholarships and we have a lot of singers in the family including me so picking schools with good choirs was even a factor (and their father is an organist).

The more you can encourage people to try the choir the better however as that way you can get people who had no understanding they could sing and develop them; but in the example here there was an audition so it should have been explained that most people would not get in (and perhaps say we have another choice you will be joining however if you do not get into this one)

Premiumchange · 14/05/2023 07:40

It was an audition so YABU. A good school will provide other musical opportunities but a school choir is for people with the right voices.

KinderCat · 14/05/2023 07:40

Whilst it does seem quite ruthless to reject a 11 year old I don't necessarily think it is a bad thing OP.

Firstly, I work in a school and the lack of resilience is one of the biggest hurdles I come across. Do think there is value is learning this alone, tough as it seems in the short term.

Secondly, most curricular clubs tend to become competitive or have to perform after time and if your daughter didn't naturally improve this would mean either them dropping her at a later stage for the best chances/accepting they will not be the best or, worse, allowing her to potentially be embarrassed if she performs. Clubs like this that are via audition tend to build on existing skills rather than teach the basics.

arethereanyleftatall · 14/05/2023 07:41

tigerdrew · 14/05/2023 01:26

Do you really go around telling young kids they aren't good at something? That seems so sad...

Actually, the opposite is true. If you persist on telling your child they're brilliant at everything, then when life happens, this happens...

'Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc'

That is a complete over reaction. I expect she has learnt entitlement from you, and now has over the top responses to things because she has no resilience,

EnidSpyton · 14/05/2023 07:42

@Flibbyjibby I don’t think anyone would disagree with your approach. It sounds wonderful.

However, not every school can afford to offer the myriad of opportunities your school does. In the last school I taught in, we only had one music teacher. If she’d led an auditioned and non auditioned choir as well as the various bands and orchestras she offered with help from the sixth formers, the poor woman would never have had a break during the school day.

We don’t know the situation in the OP’s daughter’s school. There may well be an auditioned and non auditioned choir. Or maybe the music teacher has been pressured into providing competition level musical opportunities by the Head and so has been forced to be exclusive. As teachers we shouldn’t do other teachers down. The budgets for arts subjects are tough right now in schools and we don’t know what pressures this school and its teachers are under. You have a wonderful and ideal situation and are doing a great job, and that’s brilliant. I’m so glad there are music departments like yours. But for those of us (like me) who are one man bands in schools who don’t care much about the arts, we have to do the best we can with what we have, and sometimes that means we can’t be as inclusive as we’d like to be.

beachwhirly · 14/05/2023 07:43

Nope. You need to sing well to be in a choir.

A lesson I learnt at the same age as your DD. This is real life and rejection happens!

OutsideLookingOut · 14/05/2023 07:43

DysmalRadius · 14/05/2023 07:39

The glee with which some posters have appeared on this thread to suggest that an 11 year old should just 'get singing lessons' or 'become more resilient' after being excluded, by an adult, is truly saddening.

Living in the society we do makes us all competitive to a fault. I really loved the perspectives on this thread about music being part of the human experience. I’m pleasantly surprised not everyone sees things I the same way.

A mix of views feels right to me; no we can’t get everyone we want however there should be places even the mediocre can get together and sing :)

Also OP some of the children who got in may be exceptional or they may have had more resources to practice; paid tutors etc. We don’t all start from the same position!

LolaSmiles · 14/05/2023 07:43

@FlibbyjibbyI don’t think anyone would disagree with your approach. It sounds wonderful.

"However, not every school can afford to offer the myriad of opportunities your school does. In the last school I taught in, we only had one music teacher. If she’d led an auditioned and non auditioned choir as well as the various bands and orchestras she offered with help from the sixth formers, the poor woman would never have had a break during the school day*
This
Just because one person and their school has enough resources and staff willing/able to offer lots of additional hours running clubs, doesn't mean other schools are in the same position.

CabbagePatchDole · 14/05/2023 07:44

I can't believe that people on here are saying about how it's OK for someone to be excluded from a choir.

In real life, in the adult world anyone can join most choirs (unless they are professional) and quite rightly so because singing is so good for wellbeing and everyone should have the opportunity to do it, especially at this time given how crazy the world is and that music will really help with people's mental health.

I don't think the school should be holding auditions for the choir. I think anyone should be able to join and the more naturally talented be given the solos. I actually think that those who aren't naturally talented should be given solos as well. It's a school choir ffs! If a kid has a desire they should be given every opportunity to explore it because I have noticed that, apart from football, there is just not as much for kids to do that involves being in community with others. So many kids don't pursue interests apart from social media. As they get older OP's child might find that they enjoy helping behind the scenes or prefer to play an instrument than sing. Or continue singing for enjoyment in choirs for the rest of their life. Why not?

Last night I saw a group of kids who were all congregated outside McDonalds - as their recreation! McDonalds! Because the youth centres of my youth have disappeared and there seems to be fuck all for them to do. We should be encouraging kids to have interests/hobbies.

OP is there a community choir in your area that you can both join? Those choirs don't exclude anybody.

ShoesoftheWorld · 14/05/2023 07:44

Yy - pompous is spot on for some of these posts. They also transport a very strange idea of the purpose of music in general and singing in particular. PPs make a very good point that singing is hardwired into us. Many cultural groups sing together as a matter of course, at meetings, to tell stories.

I suppose it comes down to whether you think music education is about churning out 'excellence' to, essentially, show off (a more childish impulse than any 11yo's disappointment) or about making musicality accessible and building community.

as for the 'get her singing lessons ' posts - expensive singing lessons - buy the opportunity and if you can't afford it she can't have it. :hmm:

OutsideLookingOut · 14/05/2023 07:45

ShoesoftheWorld · 14/05/2023 07:44

Yy - pompous is spot on for some of these posts. They also transport a very strange idea of the purpose of music in general and singing in particular. PPs make a very good point that singing is hardwired into us. Many cultural groups sing together as a matter of course, at meetings, to tell stories.

I suppose it comes down to whether you think music education is about churning out 'excellence' to, essentially, show off (a more childish impulse than any 11yo's disappointment) or about making musicality accessible and building community.

as for the 'get her singing lessons ' posts - expensive singing lessons - buy the opportunity and if you can't afford it she can't have it. :hmm:

Why is there no like button?

Hibernating80 · 14/05/2023 07:46

I agree that it's dreadful to reject a kid from the choir. School is about learning and also understanding that you don't have to be the best to have a meaningful and worthwhile career in something. At her age she has lots of potential to learn how to sing. The school could attend different levels of performance and choose the strongest for the top performances. They are sending the wrong messages to the kids.

AuntieJune · 14/05/2023 07:46

NeedCoffeeNowPlease · 14/05/2023 07:36

Music is actually extremely competitive (unless it's just a fun choir). A lot of schools have very serious music departments with very well qualified students. At this age a lot of things - dance, music, sports, etc, stop being all just fun and students start to find their niches (and where their talents do and do lie). At 11 my daughter had to audition for very competitive dance schools. It took three years before she was accepted to a top dance school. At this stage this is where those that can hack the future professional environment get sorted. You can still do dance for fun but those who will go on to tertiary study in these areas find it starts to become very selective.

They need to learn that it's okay to be disappointed and feel it, then pick themselves up and try again knowing they may or may not succeed. That's reality.

Show quote history

Not really, this is framing it as singing only being 'worth it's if you study it further or use it in your career etc

I think it's worth doing for its own sake

By all means have an auditioned choir too

That way children could learn 'I'm not naturally the best at this but I enjoy it so I can still do it' just like you don't need to be Scott of the antarctic to enjoy a good hike

NeedCoffeeNowPlease · 14/05/2023 07:47

ShoesoftheWorld · 14/05/2023 07:44

Yy - pompous is spot on for some of these posts. They also transport a very strange idea of the purpose of music in general and singing in particular. PPs make a very good point that singing is hardwired into us. Many cultural groups sing together as a matter of course, at meetings, to tell stories.

I suppose it comes down to whether you think music education is about churning out 'excellence' to, essentially, show off (a more childish impulse than any 11yo's disappointment) or about making musicality accessible and building community.

as for the 'get her singing lessons ' posts - expensive singing lessons - buy the opportunity and if you can't afford it she can't have it. :hmm:

Music is accessible. Just because one choir isn't, doesn't mean there aren't community choirs, cultural groups that involve music, other ways of participating in music. Around the preteens-early teens is when music starts breaking into two streams - more formal (and highly competitive) and for fun community based groups. Everyone can and should be able to access music. For all we know the school group has limited places and they needed a soprano when OP's daughter sings alto.

OutsideLookingOut · 14/05/2023 07:47

arethereanyleftatall · 14/05/2023 07:41

Actually, the opposite is true. If you persist on telling your child they're brilliant at everything, then when life happens, this happens...

'Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc'

That is a complete over reaction. I expect she has learnt entitlement from you, and now has over the top responses to things because she has no resilience,

Show quote history

Feeling strongly even feeling discouraged is not a sign of no resilience. It is what you do afterwards that counts.

I hope OP can help her daughter find other other opportunities to sing!

hattie43 · 14/05/2023 07:48

Children have to learn to deal with rejection . Your DD may not be able to sing but she will have other talents .

DarkForces · 14/05/2023 07:48

DysmalRadius · 14/05/2023 07:39

The glee with which some posters have appeared on this thread to suggest that an 11 year old should just 'get singing lessons' or 'become more resilient' after being excluded, by an adult, is truly saddening.

My dd takes part in competitive solo sports. Every time she competes I discuss how to deal with not getting a medal and that it's ok not to be the best. She's not in high school yet but learning to lose or miss out is essential if you're not going to be destroyed when you start being compared to others. I always tell her you can't help it if there's someone better in the room or you have a bad day. It's lovely when you win but whatever happens I'll love you the same so please don't worry and enjoy yourself

usernother · 14/05/2023 07:48

@AuntieJune
And have you sung in a choir since our did that kill singing for you, aged 7 or whatever, based on someone's else's one minute judgement of you?

No, I've never wanted to be in a choir but I love singing. We attended singing events as a school which were good fun. The choir audition experience didn't kill my personal enjoyment of singing at all.

NeedCoffeeNowPlease · 14/05/2023 07:48

AuntieJune · 14/05/2023 07:46

Not really, this is framing it as singing only being 'worth it's if you study it further or use it in your career etc

I think it's worth doing for its own sake

By all means have an auditioned choir too

That way children could learn 'I'm not naturally the best at this but I enjoy it so I can still do it' just like you don't need to be Scott of the antarctic to enjoy a good hike

Show quote history

Of course it is but, having been part of that world, I know that this is the age where there starts to be a divide between formal, competitive musical opportunities and the more fun community oriented ones. Music is worth it for every single person. It's just a matter of finding the right fit and place.

PollyPut · 14/05/2023 07:48

Many schools have a non-auditioned choir as well as the auditioned one.

Does yours?

If so, get her to go to the non-auditioned one to start with and learn aural skills and practice. This will help her and she may be ready to join the auditioned one next year.

If not then look for a non-auditioned choir outside of school and start there. Or even singing lessons if you can find them at an affordable rate - sounds like she would enjoy them. Or maybe a summer course?