To think a secondary school choir rejecting an 11 year old based on their voice is horrible?

[tigerdrew]

Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc

DD tried out for the school choir which is done by audition so obviously she was aware there was some kind of judging involved and so was I but I do think rejecting a year 7 into something they are interested in trying is harsh, especially when it's hard enough for year 7s.

AIBU to think a school choir should just be for whoever is interested? When kids are all singing in a group they do sound the same anyway! Obviously maybe solos could be kept for the particularly talented but I'm honestly just a bit sad and even annoyed.

I’m in my mid-30s, and I’m still hurt by this…

At my school, everyone had to audition for the choir when they started school at 11. So all 40 girls auditioned, and only 5 of us didn’t get in.

The choir would then have various trips throughout the year - ice skating in winter, chessington in summer, etc. So the 5 of us would have an ordinary school day whilst everyone else would go off on a jolly.

I’m clearly still bitter about it. There are kinder ways to treat 11 year olds rather than telling them they clearly have a crap voice and exclude them from all sorts of activities.

That's not the situation here though is it? I can't imagine any school is going to take the school choir off on special, expensive day trips. Imagine the complaints and waving of inclusion policies!

Don't get me wrong, she doesn't have an amazing natural talent but nor is she someone who is completely out of time.

So by your own admission, your DD can't sing.
Either get her some lessons or find her something else to do.

Is she particularly interested in singing? If she is, I'd try to get singing lessons through school or maybe see if there's anything not selective and extra-curricular she could do to build her confidence and ability. If it was just a whim and she doesn't really care, I'd try to direct her attention to other things that she does or could do, ie "but you spend so much time on your netball and the choir might have ended up clashing with that next year anyway."

YABU, my 12 year old can sing well, she has group lessons, last year she recorded a song for inclusion on an album for a newly written musical with one other child. she was chosen to sing a solo at the start of her music classes piece at the year 7 concert.

But, when she auditioned for the two choirs at her school (specialist sports and music college) she didn’t get in. And that’s ok, she didn’t make it. Sh3 has auditioned for things and got them, she has auditioned for things and not got a call back. That is life, my job is to give her access to the opportunities and help her to be resilient about the outcomes,

So she just learnt what selection looks like and everyone’s not always a winner. What did you think happens at auditions. You are unreasonable for actively suppressing her resilience.

This thread reinforces why we have a generation of snowflakes upon us.

Honestly I think that is fair for a secondary school choir and to be honest even our primary school choir was quite selective by years 5 and 6 as we used to sing in public places regularly. I remember joining the school band at secondary and realising I wasn't playing to the same standard as everyone else so had to drop out. Our local drama group is pretty accommodating, there is always a part for everyone even if they can't sing too well.

11 is a bit young for the rejection, but it's similar to being cut from the football team, which nobody would argue.

If she is that interested in singing, she should be using YouTube tutorials and practicing at home so that she can audition again next year. If you can afford it, maybe see if you can give her singing lessons as an extra-curricular (obviously this isn't feasible for a lot of families).

Being cut from a team or group once doesn't mean she'll never get in!

To put it into perspective, if you do a maths or georgraphy test in year nine and get a grade D, the teacher doesn't say "Not good enough, give up."
Hardly the same thing. Required academic learning compared to a voluntary choir - which clearly stated auditions. No wonder schools are sick of parents

Some 11 yos will have taken and 'failed' the 11+.

What's sad isn't that a child might not be the best singer in the world and make a career in pop music, but can't be in a school choir which is probably a few kids practising in a classroom at lunchtime with a teacher.
The child enjoys singing and wants to improve, and is seeking out activities to enable her to do so. Not everyone can just pay out for private lessons, school is the place for learning stuff and building confidence.
My kids' school talks a lot about the importance of building confidence in singing, not because most of us will ever be good enough to be professional singers, but because there is joy to be had in it. As someone who had a similar experience to OP's child and learnt at 11 that I was no good at singing and should mouth along at church, in assembly, at weddings, when encouraged by my family to join the non audition church choir I didn't, because I now knew something I didn't before, which was that I couldn't sing, and that I would spoil the sound of a group singing.
OP I'm really sorry for what happened to your child and I hope you are able to find a more welcoming and encouraging group for her to join, so that the joy isn't taken out of something she loves. Hopefully this will also lead to new friends and cool experiences for her. Xx

I love this youtube video of Ed Sheran talking about people having natural talent. A good argument for giving kids the chance to learn and develop.

Not everyone is good at everything, it's our jobs as parents to prepare our dc for this.

At our school, there were no auditions for choir. DD was in it from y7-9.

DDs primary school had auditions for the ks2 choir, she didn't get in till year 5 or 6. So having auditions for a secondary school choir doesn't seem at all unusual.

However, ideally a secondary school should have more than one 'choir'- one for the kids who can sing in time, tune and harmony and another all-comers.

She needs to learn resilience. I was booted out of my school choir in Y5; yes it knocked my confidence but the music teacher was correct that I couldn't sing!

I’m actually much better at singing in tune now (used to be horribly flat), simply through practice, but what I can't do is hear the key that other people are singing in and also sing in that key. So I still couldn't join a choir because I'd be totally off-key, even if I were singing in tune 😬

OP - so sorry your DD is upset. Congratulations to her on giving it a go and auditioning in school - kudos for that as it takes a lot of courage for some Y7 to just get through the door.I used to run primary school choirs -(have worked in music education for more years than I care to remember!) - and my choirs were always non-audition with everyone welcome. We still did very well at competitive festivals and such - it was a matter of making sure less confident/experienced singers had the scaffolding of confident/experienced ones around them, and giving the confident ones the occasional little moment of glory - solo line or something. All supported each other and , not surprisingly, the sound improved as their confidence grew.

As PP has said, very very few people are actually tone deaf, but many adults will be able to remember being in a situation similar to your daughter’s. The good news is that teachers are not always correct, and the trick is not to stop singing. Tell her to sing along to songs she loves, look for tracks online with the lead vocal removed so that she can be the soloist and boost her confidence. You might find that there is a more inclusive, out of school choir she could join - maybe a young people’s amateur operatic society if she enjoys acting/dancing as well.

P.S. I am a school choir reject too!

This is a sad thread. The resilience thing is a ready herring - I'm sure the OP's daughter will have had plenty of other opportunities to join the school of hard knocks. For me, this looks like another reason why music is becoming increasingly exclusive, when people expect that you've got to be "good" or "talented", or have lessons to join in in the first place. Relative pitch absolutely can be taught, practised and improved, and singing group is just the place to learn. Music is getting edged out of the school curriculum and to see it further restricted when kids want to have a crack is depressing.

One of my DC attends, in various settings, five ensembles and a choir. One of the ensembles and the choir are non auditioned, and although the quality is not as high as the auditioned ensembles it's a joy to watch and hear the kids really enjoying making music in a friendly and supportive environment. You can hear how much they improve as well. My DC could have dropped the non-auditioned ensembles when she got into the others (junior conservatoire), but she loves making music in a friendly, relaxed environment and that's just as important to her as the overall sound. When she started these groups she was out of tune and squeaky, but the existence of groups like this helped her feel that classical music was accessible for people like her, and IMO played a huge part in her getting into a conservatoire junior department.

BIG THANKS to the several posters running inclusive/training groups for kids. It's so important and valued.

I was 7 when I was told I couldn't join the choir as I was flat, I'm 50 now and I still remember it. I still think it was cruel.

Agree.

Is this choir for the benefit of the glory of the school - or for the benefit of the children who are actually in the school.

There’s a huge difference. Children go to school to try out and experience and learn lots of things. Choir teacher needs to accept that if they have aspirations to be lauded and famous they should stop teaching children in a school and try their hand at a professional choir.

Hear hear.

OP I’m a singing teacher and have worked in several high schools and run their choirs etc. Whilst I do agree with the idea that not everyone can pass any audition/get into every group, I’ve never worked in a school that didn’t have a main school choir that was open to all and not auditioned. Auditioned chamber choirs yes, but there’s usually a main choir open to everyone.

Are you 100% sure she wasn’t auditioning for something smaller, and there’s definitely no other choir option open to her? If so, I think that’s poor from the music department. It should be about finding a balance between nurturing talent and inclusivity.

Well there's not a lot you can do about it. Even if you somehow got hold of the choir teacher and successfully pleaded DD's case, she is old enough to know her place in the choir was done out of pity or so the teacher could have an easy life, which wouldn't be nice for her.

Maybe look into local theatre clubs for her? I've been looking at one for DS and it looks fabulous and a lot more fun than choir - they do singing, dancing and acting!

As hard as it is to see our children feeling upset or dejected, learning resilience and that the world isn't about "everyone getting a turn" is sadly a part of life.

Instead of focusing on the rejection itself, help her to rephrase it in her mind. Maybe if it's affordable you could look at singing lessons, if not then YouTube can be a great resource for videos to teach us how to improve at something. Focus on the resilience and the goal rather than the failure to get in first time.

But I do agree that auditions are purposely to choose the ones who are best at it to make the choir sound good, so I don't think it's unreasonable that your DD didn't get in, as difficult as that is to navigate as a parent.

Oh dear, nothing "happened to her child." She auditioned for something (presumably OP and DD understand the concept of an audition). There was no traumatic, awful "happening to her child" and it is allowing children and adults to believe that it is that leads to young people with zero resilience.

I’m in a secondary where there are opportunities for all kids to sing in choirs at one point or another (faith school with loads of religious services) but there are auditions for the main school choir. They are a very successful choir and so those who are in the choir sometimes get to perform on TV or at big events. It’s very popular and is the most popular extra-curricular on offer by some margin. Some years we have 70-80 new year 7s wanting to audition. It’s a big choir but there isn’t capacity for that many to join in one year group they can take about 15 per year group for year 7-11 and kids do tend to stay for the whole 5 years, 7 if they stay at sixth form. I’m not involved in the audition process but I know the music department an choirmaster well enough to know that they will be as nice about it as they can be.
It just has to be done.