To think a secondary school choir rejecting an 11 year old based on their voice is horrible?

[tigerdrew]

Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc

DD tried out for the school choir which is done by audition so obviously she was aware there was some kind of judging involved and so was I but I do think rejecting a year 7 into something they are interested in trying is harsh, especially when it's hard enough for year 7s.

AIBU to think a school choir should just be for whoever is interested? When kids are all singing in a group they do sound the same anyway! Obviously maybe solos could be kept for the particularly talented but I'm honestly just a bit sad and even annoyed.

Don't go for something competitive that requires an audition if you're going to be sad about being rejected.

Plenty of 'everyone welcome' opportunities elsewhere im sure.

Even seasoned professional actors (some of them “stars”) get sad if they are rejected for a part that they really wanted or if they get it and it falls through. I’ve seen this with my own eyes. And these are people who have to deal with rejection as a way of life. It’s natural to feel down when you face rejection. Normal too to feel it’s unfair. It’s like going through a mini grief process. It’s part of getting over itt and reaching acceptance. Which OPs daughter will do in time.

I don't agree with that, actually. If everyone followed that rule, no one would ever try out for anything they cared about!

There's nothing wrong with feeling sad or disappointed because you failed an audition, though.

Sadness and disappointment are normal, healthy human emotions. It's how you handle them that matters - do you kick off and refuse to ever apply for anything ever again, or do you have a cry, dust yourself off and try again?

"Sadness and disappointment are normal, healthy human emotions. It's how you handle them that matters - do you kick off and refuse to ever apply for anything ever again, or do you have a cry, dust yourself off and try again?"

I do that last one. But I was referring to op's devastated child and op herself who questions the ethics of a school choir that selects on ability. If you can't cope - as opposed to building resilience, rising to the challenge etc - then don't do it. Because whining about the unfairness of it is ridiculous when you chose to enter the process.

Encourage her to keep trying, op, if she enjoys singing. Try to find some other opportunities outside school for her to learn and have a go.

One of my earliest school memories is auditioning for the school choir at primary school in year 1, so I would have been 5 or 6. I’d liked singing up until then, but I was painfully shy. Having to sing on my own in front of most of the class was just too hard for me, even though in a group I could manage fine, so I probably just squeaked or sang really quietly. I was the only kid that didn’t get into the school choir. My mum would probably have played merry hell with the teacher if she’d found out, but I was too embarrassed to tell her. From that point on I never really sang again. Mimed along with hymns in assembly or church, gave up playing piano when I found out that singing notes was part of the grade exams, never let anyone hear me singing along with the radio, never sang to my dc as babies in case someone heard, etc.

I was in local choir at that age and tried out for bigger one but my voice wasn't a match.
I was sad for like a day, because my parents just explained I can't be great in everything and fit in everywhere 🤷🏻

Exactly the same thing happened to me, age 11. It was mortifying at the time as I had to audition in front of the whole class, and then it was a ‘no’. But tbf I do have a crap voice. I understand that some people just have a very limited vocal range, and I’m one of those people. Which is no good for a choir. 31 years later I can say not getting into the choir has not affected me badly 😊. It’s a kick in the guts at the time and of course it’s not nice to think of your kid going through that, but a bit of resilience building isn’t a terrible thing.

You're right op it isn't fair. My son is in a musical theatre group, some of the kids can sing and some can't. No one is excluded as they are all still learning. If it was a school orchestra some of the kids would be at a higher level than others but they would all improve together. At 11 you're daughter could still go on to be a wonderful singer, but now she has been put off. That's really harsh. Get her singing lessons and have her join a better singing group when she is ready. Then she can stick her fingers up to the miserables teacher at her school.

One thing to play in the everyone welcome school club, another to be picked for the team that competes/performs.

The lesson that application of time & effort to improve is appropriate for this age group.

Raw talent taps at a few doors, application & effort is what gets most kids over the threshold. Few are born with massive effortless talent, the rest have to apply themselves. Life lesson.

should you tell them they're fantastic at everything so they get a real slap-in-the-face-wake-up-call as an adult?

They were auditions - the clue is in the process, not everyone will get in. DD needs to learn how to handle rejection / failure. It is a hugely important life lesson

It's a school choir for gods sake, they aren't going to be performing at the bloody opera house. They probably don't get many kids wanting to do it so the kids who want to and have a interest should be allowed to join. Schools encourage kids to join as many clubs as they like but to be knocked back is a kick in the teeth especially for year 7s when their still finding their feet and would of took a lot of courage.

But her DD is 11 - she's not going to have the resilience of a fully grown adult.

It's okay for her to cry and be disappointed about things - it doesn't mean she's ridiculous. It means she's a kid who's still learning how to cope with knockbacks and setbacks.

If she's never experienced rejection at school before (and it sounds like she hasn't), then she's not going to know how to cope with it, is she? It's something you learn with experience.

I agree that OP's reaction probably isn't helping but that's not the fault of the 11yo.

Of course it's ok for her to cry and feel disappointed. I feel for the DD, but that doesn't mean that the school is in the wrong and that anyone should be able to join the choir.

My DD, 11, desperately wants to be an artist

Her drawings are very enthusiastic, but are not good.
She entered an art competition and didn't even get past the qualifying criteria, she was devastated

I told her she tried, she put in her best effort and she should be proud of that, like I am, and that sometimes there are people out there better at things than we are. Doesn't mean we give up, it means we try and take the knock backs to help us move forward

I think the key word is "audition"; I ran two choirs on that basis, plus everyone used their voices in class lessons which were part of the regular timetable, and it was clear that being one of the "crack troops" required more than enthusiasm. Three separate singing opportunities, but the chamber choir tackled far more demanding music. We entered competitive events, and they had to handle being beaten on the day by a better performance, and even when we did carry off the silverware, I would point out the winning aspects of our competitors - watch and learn!
I sometimes found myself commiserating with the teachers who ran sports teams; everyone had the chance to participate in class lessons, but when picking a squad for the tournament, they would pick the strongest players. Imagine for a moment being the player who affects the team's chances......other team members will be less than tactful.

Have her join a non audition saturday music school eg look at council run trusts and options.

Or stagecoach etyke musicql theatre saturday school.
Explain there are other options to (learn to ) sing. And the valuable skill is listening to herself and others. That can be learned.

Not being picked for choir is just that. A disappointment but not the end.
Move on and develop music skills elsewhere

There are a lot of assumptions there that could be way off. If there are auditions and some are rejected then clearly more people want to be in the choir than they have spaces for.
Our school choir has performed at the Royal Albert Hall on more than one occasion and there are plenty of other school choirs out there that do similar. We have huge numbers wanting to join in year 7 and there just aren’t spaces for all of them. If we let everyone who wanted to join be in the choir we’d have a choir of about 350… that’s just not manageable. I think they keep it to about 80 members, which is still a handful but means only 10-15 spaces for year 7 when 70-80 audition.

I mean... sorry but it is a choir. If she sounds like a foghorn or is totally out of tune/tone she could ruin the entire song.

Choirs have almost always been selective at schools. Would you consider getting her singing lessons?

Where? You have to pay for it or travel to many of them. Out of reach for many children.

School is the one place where children should be able to try out things that interest them and be given a chance to learn and improve.

I’ve not read all the posts, so sorry if lm being repetitive. Please give her all the encouragement you can and like others have said see if she’ll join a community performing club/ group.
When I was at secondary school, many moons ago, in our first music lesson we had to individually sing. My experience was similar to your daughters and I was made to feel shame. All my adult life I avoided singing, although I wished I could.
Seven years ago I very nervously joined a community choir with a marvellous director of music and with loads of encouragement, right teaching of breathing and voice control- I sang. Still not brave enough for a solo!

Think a lot of people on here don’t seem to understand that singing for pleasure should be an option for every child who would like to do it. Not singing competitively. Singing for pleasure. If the school can’t offer that to a child who would love to do it then it’s a pretty rubbish school. No matter how many choir medals it wins it is failing at the thing that’s really important.

The same goes for sport.

If you only celebrate the winners, the only one celebrating will be the winner.

And the funding for this comes from?

It is a fine ideal, but music for everyone is not funded properly in our education system. Would you say the same about a school that runs a football team rather than extra curricular football coaching for every single child in the school?

I would say that a choir that is auditioned is aiming for excellence in its singing, not inclusion therefore you can't dismiss it at failing at all as it's aims are different. Supporting children with a lot of talent in a certain area is no less important than giving all opportunity.

Of course it would be lovely if schools could offer competitive and fun options for every extra-curricular activity, but in reality that's just not possible.

Who's going to fund all these clubs? Where are you going to find the staff and space to run them all? Who's going to pay for the extra electricity, the heating and all the running costs?