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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think a secondary school choir rejecting an 11 year old based on their voice is horrible?

612 replies

tigerdrew · 14/05/2023 01:14

Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc

DD tried out for the school choir which is done by audition so obviously she was aware there was some kind of judging involved and so was I but I do think rejecting a year 7 into something they are interested in trying is harsh, especially when it's hard enough for year 7s.

AIBU to think a school choir should just be for whoever is interested? When kids are all singing in a group they do sound the same anyway! Obviously maybe solos could be kept for the particularly talented but I'm honestly just a bit sad and even annoyed.

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 14/05/2023 08:28

How do kids who are good at everything develop resilience? Maybe we should exclude kids from things at random just to teach them that life isn't fair? (I suppose we do, it's called the class system)
In my experience the kids who are 'good at everything' aren't naturally good at everything. People mistake being a nice rounded child for them being good at everything.

I've taught a lot of 'good at everything' students and they're often very pleasant, general all-rounders and have a particular skill in one or two areas. They typically will spend their time on the things they're good at and not on others (eg they might have flute lessons but not join the orchestra because there are better flautists, and they would rather put their energy into netball). They have subjects they're more talented at than others, so will have to put more effort into the ones they're not as good at. They experience disappointment with a lower test score, or if they don't make the team/only make the B team and they were hoping for the A team, they didn't get the role in the play they hoped for, didn't get through county trials, didn't get into regional music ensembles.
They typically have quite a bit of resilience and have, from younger ages, been brought up to know nobody is great at everything, disappointment is a normal part of life, and they can always try something else or work at something to get better.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 14/05/2023 08:29

Why not let a child compete and fail if they want to, enjoy the experience etc? Plenty of long distance running things are like that

For major endurance events, like Ironman length triathlons, the longer Audax cycling events, and ultra-marathons, just finishing within the time limit is deemed a major achievement.

Treeonahill · 14/05/2023 08:30

I started off in a school choir and then joined a church choir, it was a very decent one and we took Royal school of church music exams. Have been in adult choirs as well. Some were audition and some were not. It is unfortunate but if a voice or two aren’t good it changes everything. The school choir I was in was entered for the district competition every year so you had to be a certain standard.

It’s a real shame for your DD. Do you actually know what’s up? DH isn’t much of a singer but we joined a ships choir on a cruise, well he came along and joined in and he loved it. So he practiced using an app and is much improved.

CabbagePatchDole · 14/05/2023 08:31

Endlesssummer2022 · 14/05/2023 08:20

This.

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Actually, most people are mediocre at most things. It is quite rare for people to be exceptional so why we give the concept so much prominence (especially at school) is beyond me. I speak as someone who was supposedly "gifted" when young.

OutsideLookingOut · 14/05/2023 08:31

Endlesssummer2022 · 14/05/2023 08:20

This.

Show quote history

I disagree. Not everyone excels even at one thing. You have to decide what you want to work on. And try. Most people in the world are one shade of average at best. And better yet can improve. There is a false attitude here that if you will be good at something you always show a natural aptitude straight away. Due to different upbringings and opportunities that isn’t always the case. A child never encouraged to read or write may not discover they are good at it when they try and are given a chance to improve.

SmileyClare · 14/05/2023 08:31

There’s nothing wrong with competition, and accepting not everyone can win.

Theres everything wrong with a parent reacting like this when their dd expresses their disappointment at not “winning” at something.

Anger at the school? Making complaints? Fuming that your dd is experiencing a “sad” emotion.?

Children are increasingly growing up thinking that any negative emotion is to be avoided at all costs and if they do feel sad, worried or disappointed, it’s down to the people around them to make it better.

The number of secondary school pupils who are claiming they have “anxiety” when they’re a little nervous before exams as if it’s a terrifying disease rather than a normal emotion is unprecedented.

They all expect to be accommodated and get angry and blame others because they’re experiencing an uncomfortable emotion.

They simply expect someone else to take their feelings away. Many can’t handle any uncomfortable emotions and have the misconception that when they don’t feel “good/happy” there’s either something wrong with their mental health or they’re a victim of “non inclusivity”

Its ok to feel sad and disappointed she didn’t get a place in the choir. That’s a normal everyday emotion she doesn’t need shielding from.

Asteric · 14/05/2023 08:32

I think this is mean. At my secondary school the choir was for all comers, kids primary school is the same. Church choirs often except everyone, community choirs often do as well. We should be encouraging kids to participate, same with sport (which I often feel also excludes kids who aren’t very good). I totally get there is a place for elite (or possibly just competent) levels, but a lot of activities should be just about being able to have a go at something you enjoy.

crikeycrumbsblimey · 14/05/2023 08:32

ShoesoftheWorld · 14/05/2023 07:10

And as for posters calling a disappointed child a spoilt madam and similar names, you should be ashamed of yourselves. The guff about an entirely misconceived ide a of 'resilience ' is just that, guff. Resilience is not .magically switching off disappointment, or having armour-pla ted confidence.

Definitely - what a bunch of nasty pricks on this thread honestly. Have you all woken up with a hangover? Anyone calling an 11 year old names or saying they have a voice like a cheese grater have a bloody word with yourself.

I'm especially “enjoying” the people with seemingly have no background in music telling those who do what it is all about.

This is a choir which at 11 years old should be about developing talent and nurturing a love of music. Not ensuring someone goes through life thinking they can’t sing.

OP please see if there is a community choir or something to build you daughters confidence.

OutsideLookingOut · 14/05/2023 08:32

CabbagePatchDole · 14/05/2023 08:31

Actually, most people are mediocre at most things. It is quite rare for people to be exceptional so why we give the concept so much prominence (especially at school) is beyond me. I speak as someone who was supposedly "gifted" when young.

Show quote history

Haha snap! Yea most of us are just average but an average person can achieve great things if they are willing to persevere and not accept the everyone in their place narrative

MrsMiagi · 14/05/2023 08:34

tigerdrew · 14/05/2023 01:14

Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc

DD tried out for the school choir which is done by audition so obviously she was aware there was some kind of judging involved and so was I but I do think rejecting a year 7 into something they are interested in trying is harsh, especially when it's hard enough for year 7s.

AIBU to think a school choir should just be for whoever is interested? When kids are all singing in a group they do sound the same anyway! Obviously maybe solos could be kept for the particularly talented but I'm honestly just a bit sad and even annoyed.

No! She will be good at something else. That's the point of an audition, to select the best. This is why people go on those x factor auditions despite being terrible; they weren't told how bad they are, usually by parents. Very entitled to think she just be given a place anyway.
A choir is only as good as its worst singers. She will be sad of course but that's life and its a good lesson.
I know you say they should help people to improve.... that's singing lessons. If the school offer that then great but a choir isn't designed to improve the voices of people in it who can't sing.
If she is passionate about it why not pay for her to have singing lessons?

coffeecupsandwaxmelts · 14/05/2023 08:34

Fancylike · 14/05/2023 08:12

I’m with you, OP. How is she meant to learn how to be a “good” singer if the school won’t let her take part in the group classes. Like most things, music can be learned with practice, and choir is an ideal setting for this. Ed Sheeran was famously not a natural singer but got better with practice.

if sports teams, maths clubs etc don’t require selective auditions, then the creative groups need to follow the same inclusivity.

Choir isn't a group class though - it's a selective activity where you need to pass an audition to join.

Sports teams also work selectively - only the best children will attend matches, for example, or be selected for the squad.

It also works in academics - when I was at school, you couldn't do selective subjects at GCSE if you consistently got bad grades, and for subjects like maths, you'd only be entered for the foundation papers so the highest grade you could get was a C, but the content would be more straightforward.

SabbatWheel · 14/05/2023 08:34

IAmTheWalrus85 · 14/05/2023 07:32

This is so laughably pompous and misses the point entirely 🤣

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Pompous? Why yes, I’ll take that, thank you! I’m glad you understand that I know my job so well.

With a 34 year career as a music teacher in an ordinary (non-academy specialism) 11-16 school with opportunities for all to sing in lessons (and be taught HOW to sing) I know:
a) how to get all kids singing and to enjoy it; and
b) how to run selective / non-selective ensembles to a standard that can then perform in large venues in the UK and to tour abroad.

Pompous? I think you mean proud.

AxolotlOnions · 14/05/2023 08:36

At my school they'd take anyone for anything they wanted to do. You might be on the side-lines a lot during matches, not given any solos or given a triangle to play instead but after year 7 very few children want to do any clubs so they shouldn't be putting them off!

coffeecupsandwaxmelts · 14/05/2023 08:37

But how is she supposed to get better if the school have just told her 'no'?

Singing lessons - or if that's out of a reach, join a community choir with no need for auditions - there are loads of them out there.

bellac11 · 14/05/2023 08:38

tigerdrew · 14/05/2023 01:26

Do you really go around telling young kids they aren't good at something? That seems so sad...

Gosh you're really going to need to change your attitude if you're going to be able to support her properly through life

Its not 'sad' at all, its life. Are you encouraging her to be a world champion race runner or artist or ballet dancer even if she hasnt the skills to do those too?

Build on the strengths she does have and encourage her to take rejection well

SquashAndPineapple · 14/05/2023 08:41

This worries me!!! My yr4 DC LOVES choir. It's his favourite thing in the world. He loves singing. He's sadly not a great singer! It doesn't matter for his choir thankfully! But if it becomes auditions in yr 7, he'll b sad! :( Might mean we get him singing lessons instead though?

I know its sad OP, but most things start to get a bit harder from yr 7. No football team, or orchestra, or swim club would take a kid that couldn't play. So same for choir I guess! :( Maybe get your DC some singing lessons? When her singing has improved she can join choir?

AuntieJune · 14/05/2023 08:41

SmileyClare · 14/05/2023 08:31

There’s nothing wrong with competition, and accepting not everyone can win.

Theres everything wrong with a parent reacting like this when their dd expresses their disappointment at not “winning” at something.

Anger at the school? Making complaints? Fuming that your dd is experiencing a “sad” emotion.?

Children are increasingly growing up thinking that any negative emotion is to be avoided at all costs and if they do feel sad, worried or disappointed, it’s down to the people around them to make it better.

The number of secondary school pupils who are claiming they have “anxiety” when they’re a little nervous before exams as if it’s a terrifying disease rather than a normal emotion is unprecedented.

They all expect to be accommodated and get angry and blame others because they’re experiencing an uncomfortable emotion.

They simply expect someone else to take their feelings away. Many can’t handle any uncomfortable emotions and have the misconception that when they don’t feel “good/happy” there’s either something wrong with their mental health or they’re a victim of “non inclusivity”

Its ok to feel sad and disappointed she didn’t get a place in the choir. That’s a normal everyday emotion she doesn’t need shielding from.

I'd say high levels of anxiety in teens they enter life as debt-heaped donkeys shouldering the burden of a skewed demographic and ecological collapse while older generations feel contempt for the fact they suffer under that weight.

Things like singing for fun could help with the stress but no, it needs to be a competition to grind down the kids whose parents can't afford singing lessons

towriteyoumustlive · 14/05/2023 08:41

tigerdrew · 14/05/2023 01:26

Do you really go around telling young kids they aren't good at something? That seems so sad...

They didn't say she is not good.

They said she is not good enough for the choir which is fair enough.

You tell her there are other choirs better suited to her voice then find her another choir to sing in. Plenty of singing groups outside of schools if she wants to sing.

Or just remind her that she is good at so many other things so it doesn't matter.

Cas112 · 14/05/2023 08:41

tigerdrew · 14/05/2023 01:26

Do you really go around telling young kids they aren't good at something? That seems so sad...

This has always been a thing, can't believe you are so shocked 😂

Life lesson for your child haha

SmileyClare · 14/05/2023 08:45

If there are limited numbers who can join a choir or be part of a concert how are they selected if not on vocal ability? Confused

Names out of a hat? No doubt parents would cry Unfair! if their child didn’t get a chance to earn a place on ability?

Is it “unfair” and non inclusive to select which students can get onto a biology a level course?
What about a child who doesn’t win an art competition? Or isn’t chosen to run the 100metre sprint?
Is a parent getting angry that their child feels disappointed helpful?

Its dangerous to try to shield children from experiencing and learning to process their own feelings.

ZoraMipha · 14/05/2023 08:45

tigerdrew · 14/05/2023 01:29

Most clubs at school are about improving, anyone can sign up for the netball or football clubs, not sure how the team things work but even if they are selected from the clubs, anyone can still do the clubs. So even if they wanted a choir to perform and be the best, they should surely have an option for the kids wanting to participate and improve, like they do for everything else. DD was just told no and that's that, no way for her to get to sing at all at school even though that's what she enjoys and is interested in. Does just seem unfair

Ideally there would be two different clubs maybe for performing/ not performing - but maybe the staff don't have the capacity to do this.

My school was like this with a few sports - netball for example - you couldn't play netball outside of PE if you weren't selected for the team. Staff just didn't have capacity to run two clubs for everything.

Could she have some singing lessons and then try again? If she's really committed I'm sure she can improve.

I don't think it's that terrible to experience not being good enough to do something at 11. It's not going to kill her and she can use it as a reason to get better.

DrySherry · 14/05/2023 08:47

Aquamarine1029 · 14/05/2023 01:23

Rejection is a part of life, and it's a very valuable lesson. We can't always get what we want because we want it.

This is when we learn to accept defeat or decide to try again. Your daughter could take vocal lessons or practice on her own until auditions come around again.

This is my idea too, it's not helpful to raise a snowflake. They suffer later in life as a result when reality hits. Could you possibly turn this interest in singing into another musical pursuit ?

crikeycrumbsblimey · 14/05/2023 08:48

AuntieJune · 14/05/2023 08:41

I'd say high levels of anxiety in teens they enter life as debt-heaped donkeys shouldering the burden of a skewed demographic and ecological collapse while older generations feel contempt for the fact they suffer under that weight.

Things like singing for fun could help with the stress but no, it needs to be a competition to grind down the kids whose parents can't afford singing lessons

Show quote history

Well said @AuntieJune

We could also be teaching kids that you don’t have to be brilliant at something to enjoy it, not everything needs to be a competition with other people.

How many people give up on sport at school because they “aren’t good enough” but start running etc as adults because they realise it isn’t about winning it is about enjoyment, joy, stress relief health.

MumsnestOfVipers · 14/05/2023 08:48

What do you suggest I do when my 11 year old comes and tells me they really want to be in the choir and has an audition?

You say "jolly good, darling, give it a go". And when they don't get in, you say "Oh dear, bad luck, that's the way it goes".

It's not rocket science.

THisbackwithavengeance · 14/05/2023 08:48

"I'd say high levels of anxiety in teens they enter life as debt-heaped donkeys shouldering the burden of a skewed demographic and ecological collapse while older generations feel contempt for the fact they suffer under that weight.

Things like singing for fun could help with the stress but no, it needs to be a competition to grind down the kids whose parents can't afford singing lessons"

@AuntieJune your point is spot on. A choir at this age is about the fun of singing in a group and joining in.

The audition was so unnecessary.

It sounds like some music teachers haven't changed in their snobbish and exclusive mindset since I was at school in the 80s.