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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think a secondary school choir rejecting an 11 year old based on their voice is horrible?

612 replies

tigerdrew · 14/05/2023 01:14

Just had DD come in upset. It's quite random as it's the middle of the night and a weekend and we had a nice day today, told me she is still sad about how she is a bad singer and she doesn't want to see her music teacher as she is too embarrassed etc etc

DD tried out for the school choir which is done by audition so obviously she was aware there was some kind of judging involved and so was I but I do think rejecting a year 7 into something they are interested in trying is harsh, especially when it's hard enough for year 7s.

AIBU to think a school choir should just be for whoever is interested? When kids are all singing in a group they do sound the same anyway! Obviously maybe solos could be kept for the particularly talented but I'm honestly just a bit sad and even annoyed.

OP posts:
THisbackwithavengeance · 14/05/2023 08:03

Fucking hell there are some mean spirited comments on here.

It's a year 7 school choir not a West End musical.

Of course every child who wants to should take part. Surely it's about the enjoyment of singing together as a group and learning how to harmonise and perform.

I'm sure as shit that some of you wouldn't be this mean if it were own DCs involved.

I'd have a quiet word with the school on the choir policy.

AuntieJune · 14/05/2023 08:05

All the money spent on singing lessons to get kids into exclusive choirs could easily fund external teachers to run inclusive choirs throughout the nation!

ShoesoftheWorld · 14/05/2023 08:05

CabbagePatchDole · 14/05/2023 08:01

With respect I would actually offer an argument in opposition to what you've just said. I think that the general lack of resilience is because kids aren't being given the opportunity to participate in activities like singing. You don't learn resilience through rejection, you learn it by struggling to learn a difficult song and persisting with it. If you play an instrument for example, you learn resilience from playing boring scales everyday and learning pieces that sound like shit when you start but, with practice, actually start to sound as they should. When kids are rejected from participation they just learn....well, to be rejected. Resilience requires being given the opportunity to persist.

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Yes, and this. The way some posters are talking, their idea of resilience seems to amount to knowing your place and shutting up about it.

ShepherdMoons · 14/05/2023 08:07

It's harsh but maybe encourage her to do something that is more of her strength, everyone has a talent but just maybe not the singing in the choir. You could pay for some singing lessons and ask the music teacher if she could reconsider your dd at a later date? Just thinking if it means so much to her then this could be a plan.

Dilemma19 · 14/05/2023 08:09

You really have a sense of cheeky entitlement op. You feel annoyed? Really? She is 11! Have you never taught her that some things in life don't work in your favour? That you can't join in always, won't always be invited, etc?? And how ridiculous to suggest that all kids sound the same too! Off course they pick the best or the ones that can actually play the sport/ perform the activities well to be a part of the team . That's how it usually works.

LolaSmiles · 14/05/2023 08:10

The misconception of resilience on this thread is really annoying me. Resilience is NOT about not having or showing emotions such as disappointment. It's not a new term for a stiff upper lip. It's not even really about a (urgh) growth mindset. It's about drawing on the internal and external resources we have to manage our life experiences. By talking to her mum about her sadness (and I get how personal it can feel to be told something as inherent to you as your voice is allegedly not up to scratch) OP's dd is drawing on her resources. I'm sure she'll find a way to handle the disappointment in herself
I agree, but do think resilience is an issue here.

The OP's daughter is understandably disappointed. It's natural.

I do think it's telling that the OP didn't ensure DD was aware disappointment was a potential outcome of an audition and that when her DD hasn't got a place, the OP has jumped to criticise the school.

The OP's actions aren't making her an effective resource for her daughter because her focus seems to be insulating her child from disappointment, rather than accepting disappointment is part of life, that's ok, and we can look into what to do next.

Bluecirclesquare · 14/05/2023 08:10

tigerdrew · 14/05/2023 01:32

What do you suggest I do when my 11 year old comes and tells me they really want to be in the choir and has an audition the next days lunch break. Say oh absolutely don't bother, you're shit at singing. I don't think she is even bad, she sounds like an 11 year old singing. Don't get me wrong, she doesn't have an amazing natural talent but nor is she someone who is completely out of time.

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I'd probably try and manage expectations a bit, same as I would if my DCs were trying out for a sports team and although they could play the sport, I knew they were distinctly average at it. I'd say it was brilliant that they were auditioning/trying out, but (subtly put) the teachers would be making a selection to narrow it down to the group/team, and that means not everyone who tries out will get in.

If they didn't get in, I'd remind them what else they were good at, or ask if they would be interested in having lessons in it (if possible money and availability-wise.)

loislovesstewie · 14/05/2023 08:11

My idea of resilience is understanding that no one has everything, there will be times in life where, for a multitude of reasons, something might just be impossible. It's just a fact of life that we will hear the word 'no', often. I had to say no or a modified no thousands and thousands of times to my customers. A lot of very young people don't get that they can't have everything, sometimes it takes years to get to a comfortable position in life and takes huge effort from them. In other words, it's not handed to them on a plate. And sometimes we never get what we want and have to learn to live with disappointment.

Forfrigz · 14/05/2023 08:11

Not a lot of people know this but singing, like drawing is something you can learn. Some people have a natural tendency to learn it easier but those who can't do it can have lessons and become just as good. If you can, why not get her proper singing lessons if it's something she's interested in, or perhaps there are tutorials she van find herself online.

Fancylike · 14/05/2023 08:12

I’m with you, OP. How is she meant to learn how to be a “good” singer if the school won’t let her take part in the group classes. Like most things, music can be learned with practice, and choir is an ideal setting for this. Ed Sheeran was famously not a natural singer but got better with practice.

if sports teams, maths clubs etc don’t require selective auditions, then the creative groups need to follow the same inclusivity.

CaroleSinger · 14/05/2023 08:12

I'm not entirely sure which other attributes a choir should be based in if not voice?

Dilemma19 · 14/05/2023 08:12

What do you tell her? Tell her try it out and that she might not get picked?! Surely that's what you do. She's 11, how has she got to that age without never being in this situation. You are teaching her nothing about resilience op.

ThickSkinnedSoWhat · 14/05/2023 08:13

tigerdrew · 14/05/2023 01:26

Do you really go around telling young kids they aren't good at something? That seems so sad...

Yes. Imagine teaching children that we can't have everything in life and can't always 'win'. Absolutely ridiculous. I suggest calling the police!

AtomHeartMotherOfGod · 14/05/2023 08:15

CabbagePatchDole · 14/05/2023 07:44

I can't believe that people on here are saying about how it's OK for someone to be excluded from a choir.

In real life, in the adult world anyone can join most choirs (unless they are professional) and quite rightly so because singing is so good for wellbeing and everyone should have the opportunity to do it, especially at this time given how crazy the world is and that music will really help with people's mental health.

I don't think the school should be holding auditions for the choir. I think anyone should be able to join and the more naturally talented be given the solos. I actually think that those who aren't naturally talented should be given solos as well. It's a school choir ffs! If a kid has a desire they should be given every opportunity to explore it because I have noticed that, apart from football, there is just not as much for kids to do that involves being in community with others. So many kids don't pursue interests apart from social media. As they get older OP's child might find that they enjoy helping behind the scenes or prefer to play an instrument than sing. Or continue singing for enjoyment in choirs for the rest of their life. Why not?

Last night I saw a group of kids who were all congregated outside McDonalds - as their recreation! McDonalds! Because the youth centres of my youth have disappeared and there seems to be fuck all for them to do. We should be encouraging kids to have interests/hobbies.

OP is there a community choir in your area that you can both join? Those choirs don't exclude anybody.

No, BTW. I sing in an amateur choir that has an audition process; none of the big London choirs, like Royal Symphony Chorus/ London Philharmonic Choir, which are all open to amateurs, let people in without an audition.

However, it's not always about being in tune; I've known people be rejected for excessive vibrato, for example. It's about choosing voices that blend for a uniform sound. If your daughter has what I'd call, a 'stagey' voice - overly nasal in other words - she might not have the right sound.

electriclight · 14/05/2023 08:16

She knew it wasn't a club that took everyone, with a focus on improving.

She knew it was an audition and would have been fine with that if she had passed and others had failed.

So it is a bit hypocritical of you both to be complaining about the competitive element now, only because dd was rejected.

I'm also wondering why you didn't warn her that this could happen.

Honestly, must we tell kids they are good at everything now? Either focus on what she is good at or channel her energy into joining a more inclusive choir to improve.

knowthescore · 14/05/2023 08:16

it makes me sad for the state of music education.

Music education is in a perilous state nationally. My LA went from free instrumental lessons and a network of Saturday morning music centres to play in orchestra etc, to paid instrumental lessons, to no instrumental lessons and no music centres, during the last 30 years. Some of the kids on free lessons went on to become internationally-renowned soloists. There's a national shortage of amateur brass players. Ochestras, jazz bands, and wind bands struggle to recruit brass and colliery-type brass bands are folding because they cannot replace retiring players. Schools are using group lessons in recorders, guitar, and ukelele to tick the "instrumental music provision" box as cheaply as possible because of lack of funding, which is better than no provision, but it's killing grassroots ensembles.

JenWillsiam · 14/05/2023 08:16

tigerdrew · 14/05/2023 01:32

What do you suggest I do when my 11 year old comes and tells me they really want to be in the choir and has an audition the next days lunch break. Say oh absolutely don't bother, you're shit at singing. I don't think she is even bad, she sounds like an 11 year old singing. Don't get me wrong, she doesn't have an amazing natural talent but nor is she someone who is completely out of time.

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Let’s put it another way if she was terrible at running would you encourage her to compete and everyone see her railing behind?

and with the singing, a choir works because people can sing. If they can’t the choir is rubbish and just awful to listen to. Why humiliate her like that? Are you going to go through life telling her she’s wonderful at everything when she’s not? When do you actually start being honest? The issue here isn’t that the choir has been honest. This issue is you haven’t been. That you haven’t taught her that everyone has different talents and skills. Focus on what is good at.

AuntieJune · 14/05/2023 08:17

How do kids who are good at everything develop resilience? Maybe we should exclude kids from things at random just to teach them that life isn't fair? (I suppose we do, it's called the class system)

'just pay for singing lessons' not everyone has the money to spare

AuntieJune · 14/05/2023 08:20

JenWillsiam · 14/05/2023 08:16

Let’s put it another way if she was terrible at running would you encourage her to compete and everyone see her railing behind?

and with the singing, a choir works because people can sing. If they can’t the choir is rubbish and just awful to listen to. Why humiliate her like that? Are you going to go through life telling her she’s wonderful at everything when she’s not? When do you actually start being honest? The issue here isn’t that the choir has been honest. This issue is you haven’t been. That you haven’t taught her that everyone has different talents and skills. Focus on what is good at.

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Why not let a child compete and fail if they want to, enjoy the experience etc? Plenty of long distance running things are like that

Would you tell a child who likes running not to bother because they're shit? Nevermind the benefits of it, you won't win so don't bother

That's not actually the resilient spirit that makes people succeed in business. Ever heard of the tortoise and the hare?

Endlesssummer2022 · 14/05/2023 08:20

Aquamarine1029 · 14/05/2023 01:28

You tell them that no one is good at everything, and we all have to discover what it is we excel at. That's life.

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This.

Kazzyhoward · 14/05/2023 08:23

@Fancylike

if sports teams, maths clubs etc don’t require selective auditions, then the creative groups need to follow the same inclusivity.

They do select on ability. Maybe not for the "fun" sessions, after school club, etc., but certainly the school's "proper" football team that competes with other schools will be based on ability, as will be the school's entries to the Maths Olympiad competitions.

Back to the OP, I'd imagine the school choir will be involved in local music/singing competitions with other schools, so having members who can't sing will impact on their ability to compete.

What is missing is an informal/fun choir as an after school club, and I'm sure the school would welcome parents wanting to help set one up.

OutsideLookingOut · 14/05/2023 08:25

ShoesoftheWorld · 14/05/2023 08:03

The misconception of resilience on this thread is really annoying me. Resilience is NOT about not having or showing emotions such as disappointment. It's not a new term for a stiff upper lip. It's not even really about a (urgh) growth mindset. It's about drawing on the internal and external resources we have to manage our life experiences. By talking to her mum about her sadness (and I get how personal it can feel to be told something as inherent to you as your voice is allegedly not up to scratch) OP's dd is drawing on her resources. I'm sure she'll find a way to handle the disappointment in herself.

Exactly!

Gtsr443 · 14/05/2023 08:25

This is why schools should never be the centre of a child's universe.

She honestly won't give a toss about the school choir if she's having a great time doing performing arts out of school with inclusive organisations.

This isn't about whether she can sing or not, it is about realising she has a desire to do something and facilitating it because she's 11 and just wants to join in and have fun.

JenWillsiam · 14/05/2023 08:27

AuntieJune · 14/05/2023 08:20

Why not let a child compete and fail if they want to, enjoy the experience etc? Plenty of long distance running things are like that

Would you tell a child who likes running not to bother because they're shit? Nevermind the benefits of it, you won't win so don't bother

That's not actually the resilient spirit that makes people succeed in business. Ever heard of the tortoise and the hare?

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No I would not but I would be realistic about where they’re going to end up. Running for fun. Long distance running as an aside is not running for people are are slow. That’s also a competitive sport in its own right. if you aren’t a naturally good runner you aren’t competing and if you aren’t a naturally good singer and performer the choir is not the place for you.

Learning you aren’t good at everything is absolutely about building up resilience.

Dacadactyl · 14/05/2023 08:27

Bless your DD, OP.

But I do think the school are fine to only want the best singers in the choir. I am surprised that it's taken until year 7 for her not to be selected for something. This is a good opportunity for you to learn how to manage her disappointment and teach her that this is a life lesson.