unbelievably selfish and cruel advice

[crochetmonkey74]

Colleague at work (lovely and really well liked) has had a terrible time recently and lost both her parents within 4 weeks of each other. She is in an awful state As you can imagine, people have flocked round to help and offer real life support in practical ways.
Another colleague has suggested she takes more care when talking to colleagues and getting upset and has said she should say " I'm really upset right now and I was wondering if you had the capacity to talk about it" before she speaks to anyone in case they find it triggering or so it gives them the opportunity to say "hey i'm feeling a little overwhelmed with work right now but I can talk next Wednesday.."
For context, bereaved colleague is in her late 40's - knobhead colleague is 24.
The people bereaved colleague is talking to are friends as well as working together. ALso, bereaved colleague is behaving in an appropriate way- not putting on anyone or taking advantage
I am honestly staggered by this - are there a new generation of people who really, even in these most extreme of situations put themselves first? What will it be like if people have such strong boundaries that they never help anyone else? I have been in a terrible situation before and the idea of someone saying they could fit me in in a weeks time would have seemed impossible. With grief, you are often going hour to hour especially in the first few months.
What do you guys think of it?

Saying “I can’t handle someone else’s personal problem when I am working” is not in anyway shaming the grieving colleague. She isn’t saying it’s a bad thing she’s grieving, she isn’t saying she shouldn’t be grieving. She’s simply setting a boundary, which is perfectly fine to do.

Saying “I can’t handle someone else’s personal problem when I am working” is not in anyway shaming the grieving colleague. She isn’t saying it’s a bad thing she’s grieving, she isn’t saying she shouldn’t be grieving. She’s simply setting a boundary, which is perfectly fine to do.

Yes absolutely, if the grieving women had been speaking to her, she'd be perfectly entitled to set that boundary.

However what she has done is told the grieving woman how she should be speaking to third parties. She's involved herself in a situation that has nothing to do with her.

I was talking about the young woman imposing her thoughts on ops friend. I think everyone could do with therapy now and then in America they see psychiatrists for fun. It's only in England it's seen as a taboo subject. Stiff upper lip like that attitude got people anywhere it's got worse in this country now people are working themselves to death to feed their kids or keep the roofs over their heads. People won't say anything because we are sheep and we like being told what to do. Our NHS ain't worth anything I am now looking into private medical insurance incase the worse happens to us with our health.

We should say more but we don't.

She didn't say that though did she? It would have been so much better if she had. That way she was at least be owning it as being her that had a problem. Instead she rather slyly took the more cowardly approach of 'people' rather than 'I' hiding behind concern for others and implying that the bereaved woman was causing issues all round.
If I were her manager I'd be having words about that. Implying your personal opinion is representative of your colleagues is quite toxic in the work place.

re. Estrangement and bureavement being different - yes BUT both are things the adult child may grieve over. Sometimes people aren’t left with much of a choice about going no contact as their family is so abusive. And arguably that can be at least as sad as losing a parent to death who was actually good to you

Thank you @Sailingaround. Appreciate that.

re. Estrangement and bureavement being different - yes BUT both are things the adult child may grieve over. Sometimes people aren’t left with much of a choice about going no contact as their family is so abusive. And arguably that can be at least as sad as losing a parent to death who was actually good to you

Thank you @Sailingaround. Appreciate that.

Trauma "dumping" is a term that rather lacks compassion and refers to a specific style of pouring out feelings to someone as if using them as a vessel, needing someone to listen and soothe them. Someone in that state is rarely able to self-regulate and is experiencing distress too intense for them to cope, so is not usually able to help it.

There's research into how attachment style is a factor in people's responses to this, those with insecure attachment more likely to feel anxious on hearing the person's distress and respond negatively, while those with more secure attachment are more able to hear others' emotional distress calmly.

From what we know of this situation, though, the OP's friend was expressing her grief to friends who invited her to do so and I assume this is shortly after recent bereavement, not an ongoing "dumping" on colleagues.

This is not correct. Many people require grief counselling (or bereavement support as it can also be known) for "normal grief" (I very much dislike that phrasing, hence the "")

Empathy, sadly, is lacking in many people, so no, not a natural human response. Many have no clue how to be emphatic.

Just look at this thread. People have made all sorts of unempathic comments about the 24 year old. We only have the OPs comments on what happened. The 24 year old of able to give their view may have a different perspective.

I am well aware of attachment styles. I have read several papers and publications who do chose to use trauma dumping. Agree with it or not
What we also know a out the situation. Something you chose to bypass is that it is very biased from the op. Look at the title and the way she describes the 24 year old. Then look at how she descibes the bereaved colleague. She likes one. Dislikes the other. Her presentation is not unbiased. As I've now said many times. We do not know what the 24 year old is or had experienced.

Considering the ops first post I would suggest this may well have spilt into the office environment more than the explanation in a meeting. Simply op likes her bereaved colleague and has a lot of empathy for her so have not felt if spilt in. 24 year old may feel differently.

As for if you care for dumping or not thats your choice. I dont mind it when used in a context like this. I would not use it professionally. Nor would I ever suggest it was merely human to express grief. I understand it impacts people differently.

So you may feel I misunderstood you. I simply have a difference of opinion to you. I prefer to find the wider perspective. In this case I see 1 biased presentation and we are unlikely to get the 24 year olds view. So we are guessing.

At a new workplace of mine, not long after I had lost my DM to breast cancer, a colleague there was also going through the last stages of supporting his own mother through end-stage BC. It was harrowing. Every day came a new update. He would ask me what to expect. Then, he just wanted his mother to die, and eventually she did. All of this was incredibly difficult for me to hear, given I was so raw myself - and I didn't have the tools or bravery to say, "Talk to someone else today." This was a new workplace for me, and I expected to work, not be someone else's sounding board.

You never know what is going on in someone else's life, really. Consolation is fine, but not when it is expected and continual.

Not sure why his age is relevant, or how it tells you he hasn’t experienced anything.

By the time I was 24 I’d lost a parent I’d been caring for (including changing nappies, showering, dressing etc) since I was a teenager. I remember being shocked at the time by how many people in their 50s and 60s in my workplace told me they weren’t present at their parent’s death bed because they ‘found it too upsetting’ or ‘wanted to remember the good times’. Those people will now be in their 70s and 80s.

It's interesting but I totally disagree with the "shouldn't ever" bit. Sometimes you probably should. You can have reasonable boundaries without being entirely selfish.

Many people require grief counselling (or bereavement support as it can also be known) for "normal grief"

What I meant was that most people don't need therapy to get them through normal grief if they have support from those willing and able to give it, as the colleagues who seek the bereaved person out seem perfectly willing and able to do. It seems like some people are uncomfortable with other people's grief as if it's abnormal. It isn't. It is also normal to deal with it privately. It just means there are a range of normal responses.

I don't think those people who are uncomfortable with others' grief should expect them to hide it away and take it to professionals though as so many have suggested, when it's a normal human feeling.

Some people may prefer to take it to professionals for a range of different reasons but that doesn't mean everyone should feel they have to.

Empathy, sadly, is lacking in many people, so no, not a natural human response. Many have no clue how to be emphatic.
And many people do, including the colleagues who have sought out the bereaved person to support them. They don't need special training for this.

Just look at this thread. People have made all sorts of unempathic comments about the 24 year old. We only have the OPs comments on what happened. The 24 year old of able to give their view may have a different perspective.

People are allowed to form a view based on the information given. This happens for most threads. You're also making assumptions, just like everyone else. Those who have a different view from you are just prioritising a bereaved person over someone who's triggered by a bereaved person. Without any further information, that's the situation. The 24 year old may have had traumatic losses, as many people have suggested based on their own experiences, but that's a much bigger reach than to say the bereaved person is 'trauma dumping' indiscriminately when the OP is explicit in stating that's not the case.

I don't think those people who are uncomfortable with others' grief should expect them to hide it away and take it to professionals though as so many have suggested, when it's a normal human feeling.
OP has been clear that this woman is regularly crying with friends. However she tries to dress it up as discreet and private, that's inappropriate in an office. Occasional upset is ununavoidable, but daily weeping in the kitchen means she should be off on sick leave, or doing shorter hours, or going for counselling, or whatever else she needs to do to get through this period. Everyone's day shouldn't revolve around grief for months each time one person in the team has a bad event, that isn't healthy and will cause business issues if it's allowed to go on.

To clarify

24 year old is female
Friend is not trauma dumping
When she talks about it, it is not in shared break area
Bereavement was announced in a staff meeting
Comment was unsolicited
Bereaved colleague is Not talking to 24 year old about it

Is it all women or men too?

Still begsthe question how the 24yr old know all this is happening if it’s not in a public area

100% this.

So how does 24 yo even know its being talked about to this extent?

I find this thread fascinating and disturbing in equal measure.

I lost my Mum in April 2020 and my DP in January 2022.

I'm 54 and have weathered a few storms, some of which were during my 20s.

At every stage it has been a case of muddling through, sometimes with excellent support from friends and family and work colleagues, sometimes not so much.

My Mum was a very stoic person, in fact a few days before she went into her end stage coma, she made me promise not to "fall apart completely" but only a little bit....

All through my life she was sometimes brutally honest about the fact that bad stuff happens, and while it's ok to have feelings getting through traumatic and shocking experiences is part of - well - life.

It sounds as though the OPs bereaved colleague is trying to do that.

The "advice" colleague sounds like a product of their generation and may be very clumsily well-meaning but also hasn't handled their concerns terribly well.

The clinical quality of their words is what chills me, but you see and read it everywhere, especially on-line, where of course most people look for advice and guidance these days.

Profound grief, especially recent and the trauma that comes with it leaves one very raw, defensive and sensitive and I've had a few experiences where likely well meaning advice has felt like having salt poured into the wound. I felt a real teeth gritting clench imagining how the bereaved colleague might have received those words. From what the OP has described about her management of her own grief, I imagine she might have simultaneously felt belittled and mortified, especially if she has been as discreet as described.

It reminded me of an allegedly close friend who told me to my face how difficult it was being around me in the weeks after my DP died, who had been very helpful and supportive in many ways, but who had also just completed cancer treatment. They insisted on being very involved with my trauma but also needed theirs addressing. Neither of us were equipped for it to be honest and our friendship has now dissolved. Which is sad, but it became very complicated.

Things I have learned -

Bereavement can be like being pregnant. The world and his wife are suddenly experts on the subject, and some are so convinced their perspective is correct they will impose it at all costs, and some will judge harshly if it doesn't match your perspective or progress through the process. All such experiences are unique, and comparisons are fruitless.

Perceptions of grief are paradoxical. I have been simultaneously expected to be a non- functional mess still under the duvet now, and also muscling through warrior style. I'm somewhere in the middle, depending on the day. It takes time, but time is a precious commodity and practical things must be addressed.

The fact that the bereaved colleague is at work is a major thing. The offered support of friends/ colleagues may be exactly what will bolster her through the process.

Advice colleague may well have their own issues, but I think they could have found a better way of handling things if that's the case. If they are just trying to be aware and mindful based on things they have absorbed from the internet that sound good to them, at some point they may have experiences that make them realise humans are complex, messy creatures and sometimes it's not that simple.

Unfortunately traumatic experiences are part of life. A sense of community, being heard, and sharing experiences when appropriate can be so very much more comforting than professional help for some people - but we're all different.

I don't think there is one perfect way of dealing with things like this, but communication is key.

TLDR

Sorry for the trauma dump, this situation resonated with me, and I hope in time everyone involved gains the peace and insight to move forward. It's all very hard.

Bereavement counselling isn’t usually recommended in the first six months anyway. My mother died last year and although I didn’t seek counselling, our GP said Cruse had a long waiting list. This is still the case in my local area.

In the first few months I did cry at some point most days but like your colleague I was functioning and could work.

From past bereavements I disagree that people who’ve experienced loss get triggered. In my experience they are the ones who get it and can sit with you in it without making it about them, and will check in, knowing that bereaved people don’t generally initiate much, or respond to the ‘call if you need anything’ message.

The people who don’t want the reminder that it could happen to them seem to be the ones that avoid, cross the road etc. Triggered more by the fear of how they would cope if it happened to them. But that’s not a good look so it’s easier to say the bereaved person is making them feel uncomfortable.

It's unsolicited, we don't know either
There hasn't been a complaint to her as she would have nothing to do with bereaved colleague in a work setting

God seems odd that management would be announcing it in a staff meeting 🫤

@Katherine1985

You make good points there.

Are you suggesting that being 40+ means you’ve more experience of grief than someone who’s 24? Otherwise what does age have to do with it?
I don’t think the younger colleague is wrong to protect her own/other peoples well being.