Page 7 | Why is it ok to be violent and insulting to a woman who makes a mistake.

whatisgoingonintheworld · 2023-05-10T13:26:05+00:00

A female calls a person 'lady' in error because she thought the person was female. The person identifies as non binary. The trans manager then verbally insults and finally physically assaults the woman and the man outside. Is this really what we have come to. A simple word and the non binary is upset and so the trans person can kick a customer from the shop, purposefully insult and then assault. So is misgendering (even by accident) so serious it merits verbal abuse and physical violence? I mean it isn't even obvious whether the person she called 'lady' behind the counter is non binary, looks female. The trans woman manager looks male and certainly acts it! Why are so many trans women displaying what was formally seen as masculine traits (violence) now that they identify as female.

determinedtomakethiswork · 10/05/2023 16:26

Anyone watching this play out on Twitter? I see Mumsnet is getting the blame for it. Apparently we have set it all up.

If I had set it up, I would have had the woman say don't misgender me when she was called madam.

NotTerfNorCis · 10/05/2023 16:26

RoseRobot · 10/05/2023 16:25

Your interpretation is generous in the extreme. There is nothing modern about men finding random reasons to threaten women. I suppose it's modern to think that by calling yourself a woman your classic male bullshit is legitimised. That's novel. But the act itself is as old as time.

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Yes, true. But in this case, the manager was fired up by self-righteousness and indignation because of 'gender identity'.

Shelefttheweb · 10/05/2023 16:27

Also considering that it is a protected belief under the equality act to believe people cannot change sex (belief in reality), and to express that belief so long as I am not harassing someone by doing so. Shouting to the whole cafe ‘she’s a lady!’ Might be harassment, saying ‘not you, the lady’ in conversation is not. You cannot refuse to serve someone for a protected belief.

Alwaystheweather · 10/05/2023 16:27

Ilovetea42 · 10/05/2023 15:49

@SweetiePi3 how would you feel if strangers filmed you out of context with the intention of you going viral online?? Might be legal but it would still annoy the shit out of me

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If a man were raging in fury at me I’d hope someone were filming it and that someone had called the police.

ThomasinaLivesHere · 10/05/2023 16:27

We've no way to know if they repeatedly do this, if they did it on purpose, if they come in regularly and are difficult towards staff etc

They live in a different area of the country and were on a day trip according to the article so likely not seen each other before.

limitedperiodonly · 10/05/2023 16:28

Ilovetea42 · 10/05/2023 16:12

I think her shouting at the staff and later yelling she thinks they're disgusting is the reason why she'd be asked to leave.

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Did she do that? I must have missed it. Can you link to that video or interview?

If that's what happened then of course she should be asked to leave. The manager would be within their rights to ask anyone to leave. But only in the calm manner I have outlined. The manager didn't do that. Altercations between customers and public-facing staff happen distressingly often and it's the manager's job to handle them.

So as I said, how would you deal with it if you were the manager of that branch of Starbucks, bearing in mind that manager hasn't got a job with Starbucks anymore?

KittyAlfred · 10/05/2023 16:29

CountryStore · 10/05/2023 14:33

The manager definitely will have a harder time trying to convince people (s)he's a woman if (s)he behaves like that. Also, s(he) really looks like a young, fairly athletic, tall man, so there's that too

no need for (s) - he's a man, 100%.

LadyGrinningSoul85 · 10/05/2023 16:30

As I was reading your post, I thought to myself "This sounds like someone exaggerating their story, and someone who reads the Daily Mail believing their every word."

Then you posted your link to the story, and lo and behold! Daily Fail link.

I'll leave this thread now, not worth my time.

Shelefttheweb · 10/05/2023 16:31

LadyGrinningSoul85 · 10/05/2023 16:30

As I was reading your post, I thought to myself "This sounds like someone exaggerating their story, and someone who reads the Daily Mail believing their every word."

Then you posted your link to the story, and lo and behold! Daily Fail link.

I'll leave this thread now, not worth my time.

And yet here you are

Florissante · 10/05/2023 16:32

N0tANOoDl3He4D · 10/05/2023 16:00

Customer gets uppity about no cash payments, snipes about it to barista, manager interjects because of customers tone & will be required to back up company policies, customer snaps at manager and misgenders barista in process, manager points out barista doesn't identify as female, both customer and manager continue to jointly escalate situation with shouting and gesticulating and rudeness ending in second customer videoing and manager taking things too far because they're all worked up.

It doesn't look good for either side. This is what I took from reading through the whole article three times, carefully, as well as watching the video.

SunnyEgg · 10/05/2023 16:32

LadyGrinningSoul85 · 10/05/2023 16:30

As I was reading your post, I thought to myself "This sounds like someone exaggerating their story, and someone who reads the Daily Mail believing their every word."

Then you posted your link to the story, and lo and behold! Daily Fail link.

I'll leave this thread now, not worth my time.

How lucky you posted that instead of just ignoring the thread

PollyPeptide · 10/05/2023 16:33

Shelefttheweb · 10/05/2023 16:11

And the fact that they're now in Tenerife getting over their trauma...!! 🙄

You think people can only complain of assault if they end up in hospital? Going on a prepared holiday somewhere away from the place where they were assaulted and where they can relax seems a good way to get over trauma to me.

She wasn't in fear of her life and they weren't traumatised. It's just ridiculous hyperbole.
She was quite right to stand up for herself and demand her money back. The employee behaved disgracefully and deserves to lose their job and whatever else that happens to them. But saying theyre inTenerife to get over the trauma just undermines their credibility.

IDontWantToBeAPie · 10/05/2023 16:34

Of course it's not ok. Assault is illegal except in cases of self defence. So this was illegal and therefore not Ok.

limitedperiodonly · 10/05/2023 16:34

NotTerfNorCis · 10/05/2023 16:18

The manager was caught up in a form of quasi-religious zealotry (gender ideology) and got carried away when reality called. I do feel almost sorry for the manager - a naïve young person swept up by a particularly bizarre strain of modern thought. I'd bet money that if that same manager had been born ten years earlier, this situation would never have occurred.

As it is, the manager is going to struggle to find alternative employment now.

I definitely wouldn't employ that person in a customer-facing role which is another reason why the video is a good thing.

Verv · 10/05/2023 16:35

LadyGrinningSoul85 · 10/05/2023 16:30

As I was reading your post, I thought to myself "This sounds like someone exaggerating their story, and someone who reads the Daily Mail believing their every word."

Then you posted your link to the story, and lo and behold! Daily Fail link.

I'll leave this thread now, not worth my time.

Lo and behold!
It's not just the Daily Mail but this is conveniently irrelevant when invoking the "Its the Daily Mail" defence.

Why is it ok to be violent and insulting to a woman who makes a mistake.

Ilovetea42 · 10/05/2023 16:36

limitedperiodonly · 10/05/2023 16:28

Did she do that? I must have missed it. Can you link to that video or interview?

If that's what happened then of course she should be asked to leave. The manager would be within their rights to ask anyone to leave. But only in the calm manner I have outlined. The manager didn't do that. Altercations between customers and public-facing staff happen distressingly often and it's the manager's job to handle them.

So as I said, how would you deal with it if you were the manager of that branch of Starbucks, bearing in mind that manager hasn't got a job with Starbucks anymore?

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I don't need to link it it's right there in the video the op linked. I'm not saying that the manager didn't lose their temper but I'm just saying they were clearly struggling with the customer at the beginning. They did ask the customer reasonably many times to leave and she refused continuing to shout and threaten to call the police etc. And we only got the tail end in the video so we don't actually know what happened in terms of the misgendering or the initial reaction of the manager outside of what the woman who was asked to leave said. So I don't think a 58 second video is enough to act jury on.

ReadersD1gest · 10/05/2023 16:37

PollyPeptide · 10/05/2023 16:33

She wasn't in fear of her life and they weren't traumatised. It's just ridiculous hyperbole.
She was quite right to stand up for herself and demand her money back. The employee behaved disgracefully and deserves to lose their job and whatever else that happens to them. But saying theyre inTenerife to get over the trauma just undermines their credibility.

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The behaviour of the manager is a stand alone, verifiable (as it was filmed, and is also covered by CCTV) thing. How the woman reacted afterwards doesn't change a damn thing 🤷🏻‍♀️
Talking about her "credibility" is ludicrous, as though the whole thing was just hearsay.

NotAnotherBathBomb · 10/05/2023 16:38

fabbykadabra · 10/05/2023 14:42

Obviously violence isn’t okay and I’m not sure where it’s been implied that it is?

Without seeing the start of the interaction it’s difficult to understand why the situation escalated so much. This is definitely not a typical reaction to innocent misgendering, so either there is more context that we have missed to explain why the manager was so riled up (not that that excuses her becoming physically violent) or just a case of the manager being aggressive. Her being trans is largely irrelevant, just as with any other demographic there are good and bad people. One aggressive trans person isn’t a reflection on trans people as a whole and most would not act this way over one mistake.

Agreed. The person has been fired. Like many other employees have been fired for inappropriate behaviour.

There are loons everywhere, some happen to be trans as well.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 10/05/2023 16:39

As far as I can make out, the older woman customer wasn't best pleased at having to pay by card and had a moan to the Starbucks employee on the till, who is female but identifies as nonbinary (and may have had They/them on their staff badge). Anybody who's worked with the general public will know that sometimes customers moan and complain. It is absolutely basic stuff for staff to be able to cope with that and plaster on a smile. If the customer becomes abusive, yes, fine, ask them to leave, but simply saying something like 'Oh no, not another place where you can't pay by cash, I really hate all this' is not abusive.

If the article is accurate, what happened next is that the manager (tall pony-tailed male, identifies as either nonbinary or trans) came over and started speaking, the customer said 'It's all right, this lady here is dealing with it' and it all kicked off. The manager behaved very badly (at a minimum). If the details given in the article are correct, the manager probably broke the law. This is far beyond anything done by the customer. How anybody can say she was responsible is beyond me.

I have very little sympathy for Starbucks here. I don't go there because they avoid paying tax in the UK.

CinnamonJellyBeans · 10/05/2023 16:40

A lack of control on both sides.

I feel the customer is not entirely blameless. She's yelling like a fishwife and pointing in the manager's face. I also notice that as the manager walks away towards the door, she's still yelling, calling the manager "disgusting". Nice.

I also wonder how the biscuits got on the floor...

Samphiredragonfly · 10/05/2023 16:43

Why was her DP filming it all ? To me that suggests it was planned and not as
innocent an interaction as suggested.
Like others have said we didn't see how the argument started. The trans person overreacted and was hysterical and threatening but painting all trans folk as the same is clearly wrong.

MsRosley · 10/05/2023 16:44

Lockheart · 10/05/2023 14:32

Well it's not "ok" is it because the person was fired and the police are looking into it.

I have no idea why you have the impression that this is "ok".

I am mighty glad to hear it. This whole movement is completely out of control.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 10/05/2023 16:44

Ilovetea42 · 10/05/2023 16:36

I don't need to link it it's right there in the video the op linked. I'm not saying that the manager didn't lose their temper but I'm just saying they were clearly struggling with the customer at the beginning. They did ask the customer reasonably many times to leave and she refused continuing to shout and threaten to call the police etc. And we only got the tail end in the video so we don't actually know what happened in terms of the misgendering or the initial reaction of the manager outside of what the woman who was asked to leave said. So I don't think a 58 second video is enough to act jury on.

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You think it's reasonable for a member of staff to put their face very close to the customer's and clap like a seal while yelling at them? Blimey. The customer had paid and had then not received what she had paid for. The manager was refusing to give her her money back and was acting aggressively towards her. No wonder she started saying she would call the police.

Florissante · 10/05/2023 16:45

Samphiredragonfly · 10/05/2023 16:43

Why was her DP filming it all ? To me that suggests it was planned and not as
innocent an interaction as suggested.
Like others have said we didn't see how the argument started. The trans person overreacted and was hysterical and threatening but painting all trans folk as the same is clearly wrong.

But it's ok to accuse the woman and her husband of planning the event. Nice bit of double standards there.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 10/05/2023 16:45

Samphiredragonfly · 10/05/2023 16:43

Why was her DP filming it all ? To me that suggests it was planned and not as
innocent an interaction as suggested.
Like others have said we didn't see how the argument started. The trans person overreacted and was hysterical and threatening but painting all trans folk as the same is clearly wrong.

If it had been planned, they'd have started filming when she first went in, surely. He started filming as evidence when it became clear she wasn't getting a refund and the manager was behaving aggressively.