Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To worry about the right wing?

335 replies

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 08/05/2023 16:14

I'm politically homeless at the moment in terms of who to vote for but morally I sit firmly centre/centre left. I'm very British with that it would seem.

I've seen over the last few years a very hard push left across social media and among the "chattering" classes which has seemingly come with a desire to shut down discussion, debate and conversation if it involves even the mildest of challenge to their way of thinking. What seems to be happening as a result of this shutting down and refusal to engage in a debate is a rise in harder line opposition, whereas before the two sides would have a somewhat heated and healthy discourse about an issue and come away mindful of each others views and with a solution in sight.

I'm noticing the louder the left shout the harder the, previously moderate, right push back and vice versa. Both sides appear to be getting more vocal and more extreme. I'm seeing this a lot around migration, feminism, the economy and crime. I'm now worried that this continued closure of conversation is going to lead us down a path of extremism - from one or both sides - and lead us to a dramatic and unwelcome rise from the far right.

Are we at a point of no return? Can we ever go back to being moderate and tolerant?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
DownNative · 08/05/2023 23:59

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 08/05/2023 23:06

Absolutely. It's the "if you don't agree with me we will shun you from society forever more" that's scary. We appear to be in a time where people are more tolerant of historical "casual" racism "it's just how they were then" than saying women don't have penises. It's a strange state to be in!

It's about polarisation of society, group think and wrong think. As society becomes more polarised and people sort themselves into siloes or echo chambers which social media makes possible rapidly, the propensity for conflict and violence increases.

With that comes increases in security related legislation. Especially given the kind of disruptive protests the last few years. Reactions to disruptive protests is also problematic, e.g. woman who pushed Insulate Britain protester with her car was banned from driving for a good while.

Too many people are more concerned with their rights than their duties and responsibilities. Being unconstructive rarely improves things.

The calls from some for British people to copy the French is shortsighted given the violence that's happened in France this year. In 1968, France almost had a civil war due to agitators such as Danny The Red. So, it's not a good idea to copy the French. A fair few romanticise the French Revolution with "Vive la révolution" - people died during the era that phrase originates. No thanks.

As the Beatles sang:

"You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out"

Polarisation of society can all too easily lead towards destruction of lives and property. And, by extension, the State.

LadyWithLapdog · 09/05/2023 07:08

@DownNative I don’t see anyone on this thread saying rights were absolute. You’re arguing from a made up starting point to then say how it’s natural and to accept curtailing rights. You sound more like Braverman than The Beatles.

pointythings · 09/05/2023 07:39

@DownNative you can't say that because of Stop Oil et al it's acceptable to arrest people who haven't done anything illegal. That's thought crime. That's dystopia. By all means deal with actual disruption. But if we accept this, we accept authoritarianism. If we accept this, we are sheep.

DownNative · 09/05/2023 07:59

pointythings · 09/05/2023 07:39

@DownNative you can't say that because of Stop Oil et al it's acceptable to arrest people who haven't done anything illegal. That's thought crime. That's dystopia. By all means deal with actual disruption. But if we accept this, we accept authoritarianism. If we accept this, we are sheep.

That is not what I said. Read again more carefully.

DownNative · 09/05/2023 08:13

LadyWithLapdog · 09/05/2023 07:08

@DownNative I don’t see anyone on this thread saying rights were absolute. You’re arguing from a made up starting point to then say how it’s natural and to accept curtailing rights. You sound more like Braverman than The Beatles.

Well, I didn't at any point assert you or anyone claimed exactly that....did I?

No, and there's good reason why you can't quote me on that one which makes your comment a Strawman Argument Fallacy.

Additionally, I didn't argue "it’s natural and to accept curtailing rights". The thrust of my argument is that not only is there a constant counterbalancing of competing non-absolute rights we're talking about here, but the direction the law heads in is usually in response to increasingly disruptive behaviour on the ground.

Democracies are rightly concerned with how disruptive protests affects everybody else and we've seen instances where members of the public have come really close to breaking point vis a vis the behaviour of the protesters behaviour. Laws in all democracies evolve in order to address behaviours that create societal problems. Without it, we easily enter onto societal malaise.

What you're doing is attempting to oversimplify the entire issue. There are no easy fixes or discussions here.

What has been missing from the increasingly polarised discourse has been a recognition that the population have duties and responsibilities to society. In other words, its NOT all about what we believe our personal rights are.

Think about how your last comment there does not aid in decreasing polarised political discussion amongst the people.

MissyB1 · 09/05/2023 08:16

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 08/05/2023 16:48

The Tories are not right wing. Americans would consider them further left then their Democrat party

The Tories are not right wing

Ok you just lost all credibility with me.

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 09/05/2023 08:46

MissyB1 · 09/05/2023 08:16

The Tories are not right wing

Ok you just lost all credibility with me.

Why should that bother me?

OP posts:
Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 08:50

YABU The whole country has moved way to the right in my lifetime, which is one reason us old lefties are pissed off.
You are wrong to frame the debate in terms of the left being uniquely intolerant and trying to shut down debate - that's very much a right wing game too, but they seem to have repeated the "nasty left" trope enough for it to gain traction.

Most "loony left" policies and ideas are perfectly normal in most of Europe where there is a greater acceptance of the existence of society and shared responsibilities.

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 08:57

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 08/05/2023 16:48

The Tories are not right wing. Americans would consider them further left then their Democrat party

So a really right wing nation would consider our right wing less right wing? But as a PP said, in most of Scandinavia and Europe, our Tory government would be considered right wing. What's the point of only considering what right wing Americans think?

We are much more right wing as a country since Thatcher, who swept away the post war consensus on many issues, including the role of society. I personally think that was a bad thing, but her apologists paint it as her being our saviour.

MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 10:26

I actually agree that the US would probably consider the tories far left wing. However, they seem to rewrite history a lot. I find it really strange that the Democrats have majority black voters when they were the ones fighting for the confederation and the republicans were the ones fighting against it.

The Democrats have done nothing but cause destruction in the US. Look at whats happening in Chicago right now. Also, Biden (or the ones pulling his strings) are twitching to get a war started. Its always with the countries who have something they want, always!

MyopicBunny · 09/05/2023 10:29

This is a bizarre thread.

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:33

MyopicBunny · 09/05/2023 10:29

This is a bizarre thread.

Not as bizarre as your post.

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:35

MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 10:26

I actually agree that the US would probably consider the tories far left wing. However, they seem to rewrite history a lot. I find it really strange that the Democrats have majority black voters when they were the ones fighting for the confederation and the republicans were the ones fighting against it.

The Democrats have done nothing but cause destruction in the US. Look at whats happening in Chicago right now. Also, Biden (or the ones pulling his strings) are twitching to get a war started. Its always with the countries who have something they want, always!

Your blinkered and binary view of US politics is exactly what's wrong, in the US and increasingly in the UK.

MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 10:35

Living next to 2 USAF bases, it's hard to ignore US politics and how it affects us and the whole world, actually. The way I see it, and I could be wrong, but whichever way you vote, it means absolute nothing. They all create problems to keep us where they want us and then spend all our money 'fixing' those problems. Rinse and repeat.

If the far right do rise up and cause problems, its because the government on both sides wants them to and we keep falling for it.

MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 10:37

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:35

Your blinkered and binary view of US politics is exactly what's wrong, in the US and increasingly in the UK.

I don't have a binary view on US politics. I'm still studying it and if I find something that changes my mind, I'll happily admit it. I just haven't found anything yet.

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:43

MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 10:37

I don't have a binary view on US politics. I'm still studying it and if I find something that changes my mind, I'll happily admit it. I just haven't found anything yet.

Yeah, sure The Democrats have done nothing but cause destruction in the US
That's such a measured and balanced view.
As much as I detest UK Tory policies, even I wouldn't claim that they have never done a single worthwhile thing. Tribalism and blind dogma are the enemies of proper democratic debate and engagement.

Lonelycrab · 09/05/2023 10:44

Another one that’s not sure about what you’re getting at op, or if you’re posting in good faith. We’ve had a number of posters saying that they’re far more afraid of the far left or ‘wokism’ than anything from the far right, yet no discussion of what exactly they’re afraid of beyond that. Do it doesn’t seem like a thread where much balanced debate is going on, and you don’t seem particularly interested on them answering why they say that.

I think this, from page 2 sums it up:

I note these concerns suddenly seem to those on the right after it seems clear there will be a Labour government and the regressive agenda of the last five years, whooped on and encouraged in the mostly right wing press with Brexit, insulting our neighbours, cod racism in Home Secretaries, bullying civil servants and declaring the BBC as effective enemy, just might be waking up to the idea that this "vampires in charge of the blood bank" style of politics is not too pleasant if you don't agree.

The current government are in effect UKIP. Moderate Tories have been ejected and we now have the likes of 30p, Braverman and Gullis have a prominent voice in the government and media. Imo, these people are really quite right wing.
Where or who are the voices from the left or hard left that are In equal prominence or power and given equivalent airtime?

We also have the Telegraph, Mail, Sun, and to a lesser extent the Express, they are (again, imo) to the right of the spectrum in viewpoint. Those four are a very large chunk of print media in this country. Certainly more than the Graun,I and mirror.

We have Geebeebies and talk tv, again on the right. Is there a left wing equivalent? Perhaps some might say ch4 news, I would disagree though. I certainly wouldn’t call them hard leftists. They’re certainly more credible from a journalistic pov that the first two.

So I don’t think that those on the right have been denied a voice or platform, quite the opposite, you have a RW govt, the print media in its pocket, you even have your own tv channels.

There are also ‘political’ parties such as Patriotic Alternative and to a lesser extent Reform gaining traction. If you look at the comments left by their supporters you will see a very strong often hard right viewpoint.

What are the left wing equivalents? Momentum is no longer a force. SWP?
Antifa?

but the direction the law heads in is usually in response to increasingly disruptive behaviour on the ground

Perhaps, specifically wrt disruptive protest you could argue that the law is responding to that, but a great deal of law being formed by this government is the opposite of what’s going on, on the ground. An example: the voter ID laws. There is no evidence ‘on the ground’ that voter fraud is at all a problem when you look at convictions, and yet this was pushed through at vast cost and disruption. Most people understand the true reason- to sway the vote. And also the retained EU law bill that has thankfully been watered down. Massive potential changes, seismic even, and the only reason being was that those laws were passed when we were EU members. “Constitutional monstrosity” is how this was described in the Lords and I agree.

With calling people “scum” I agree that personal insults are never really productive, yet is there any difference to calling people “tofu eating wokerati” or whatever the phrase was? I don’t think so. And besides, I think the actions of some of the govt, ie Mone as absolutely worthy of the description “scum”. She’s defrauded the taxpayer and is swanning round in a private yacht now at our expense after stealing from the taxpayer. I think that’s abhorrent.

SunnyEgg · 09/05/2023 10:49

Extremes can be concerning but left wing can be equally so

The attempts at erasing biological truths - see NZ and Canada

And the use of politicians, media and law enforcement to back up the violence against women

It’s all push and pull back.

As a woman looking at the autocratic erasure of biological reality is concerning though

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:51

A lot of issues being characterised as left or right wing causes aren't, actually. There's plenty of gender woo on the right. There were lots of leftie Brexit voters.

pointythings · 09/05/2023 10:51

@MillicentBystander2022 I reckon you live very near me...

It isn't the Democrats who are eroding voting rights and the right of bodily autonomy to women, is it? So I must assume you are a big Republican fangirl.

I was married to a US airman so I also watched things play out close up.

Swingstotheleftslidetotheright · 09/05/2023 10:53

Another one that’s not sure about what you’re getting at op, or if you’re posting in good faith. We’ve had a number of posters saying that they’re far more afraid of the far left or ‘wokism’ than anything from the far right, yet no discussion of what exactly they’re afraid of beyond that. Do it doesn’t seem like a thread where much balanced debate is going on, and you don’t seem particularly interested on them answering why they say that.

Im sorry you feel that way but my post is entirely in good faith and I'm interested in all replies.

I should perhaps have rethought my wording and said my concerns lay around the rise of extremism and the effects of modern day authoritarianism but that sounds more like an essay title than a Mumsnet thread.

The persistent closure of discussion, swinging conversations into strawman arguments etc happens across the spectrum and people will become more agitated by this. It's how extremist views bubble up. My other concern is the rise of antisemitism and racism again brought about through shutting down of moderate and rational discussion. The UK is a proudly moderate country (which is why Blair got elected but Corbyn didn't) but I can see how easily we could be pushed one way or the other. History shows us how easy it is for even the most gentle and moderate of people to lean into extremism

OP posts:
SunnyEgg · 09/05/2023 10:54

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:51

A lot of issues being characterised as left or right wing causes aren't, actually. There's plenty of gender woo on the right. There were lots of leftie Brexit voters.

I think they are broadly aligned correctly.

If you look at left wing v right parties and view on either

MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 10:57

Neededanewuserhandle · 09/05/2023 10:43

Yeah, sure The Democrats have done nothing but cause destruction in the US
That's such a measured and balanced view.
As much as I detest UK Tory policies, even I wouldn't claim that they have never done a single worthwhile thing. Tribalism and blind dogma are the enemies of proper democratic debate and engagement.

Ok, fair point. Maybe that was an unhelpful phrase to use and i take that back. I stand by my other points, though.

Garethkeenansstapler · 09/05/2023 11:01

stuckdownahole · 08/05/2023 21:45

Right and left have always talked across each other. The right believe that the left are deluded and naively idealistic. The left believe that the right are somehow lacking in empathy, even in basic humanity. The only way to break this impasse is to talk to people from the other side - and social media currently makes this more difficult.

Even posters on here don’t want to do that. If you so much as query any left leaning policies on here, you get piled on by posters who cite their own sad personal circumstances (eg disability) and say ‘You want to withdraw all support and just watch me die do you? DO YOU?’

MillicentBystander2022 · 09/05/2023 11:03

pointythings · 09/05/2023 10:51

@MillicentBystander2022 I reckon you live very near me...

It isn't the Democrats who are eroding voting rights and the right of bodily autonomy to women, is it? So I must assume you are a big Republican fangirl.

I was married to a US airman so I also watched things play out close up.

No, I'm not a republican fangirl at all 🤣 I hate guns, definitely believe abortions should be legal and not just for medical reasons and I don't think women are there to have babies and be wives.

Like I said, I don't think either side give a shit about the voters. I do think the left have more potential to cause problems that affect the wider population, though.