To worry about the right wing?

[Swingstotheleftslidetotheright]

I'm politically homeless at the moment in terms of who to vote for but morally I sit firmly centre/centre left. I'm very British with that it would seem.

I've seen over the last few years a very hard push left across social media and among the "chattering" classes which has seemingly come with a desire to shut down discussion, debate and conversation if it involves even the mildest of challenge to their way of thinking. What seems to be happening as a result of this shutting down and refusal to engage in a debate is a rise in harder line opposition, whereas before the two sides would have a somewhat heated and healthy discourse about an issue and come away mindful of each others views and with a solution in sight.

I'm noticing the louder the left shout the harder the, previously moderate, right push back and vice versa. Both sides appear to be getting more vocal and more extreme. I'm seeing this a lot around migration, feminism, the economy and crime. I'm now worried that this continued closure of conversation is going to lead us down a path of extremism - from one or both sides - and lead us to a dramatic and unwelcome rise from the far right.

Are we at a point of no return? Can we ever go back to being moderate and tolerant?

Like what?

Yep.

Agreed.

From my experience it's 'the left' who don't agree with free speech, unless of course it suits them. If you have any opinion/thought that doesn't completely align with the one they've been fed, they will try and shut the conversation down by screaming things like "bigot" "racist" "transphobic" and in some cases would happily have a persons life destroyed for 'wrong think'.

You are worried about the wrong thing. We should be concerned about authoritarianism not matter which direction it is coming from. Current agendas around identity and environment are regressive but not always seen as such due to being associated with left wing ideologies. Left and right are outdated terms and seem to stop people thinking for themselves.

@SoTired12 im quoting myself above as you seem to have got it into your head you need to tell me about the left. I invite you to analyse the Tory right wing government policies. They’ve been in power for 13 long fucking years and they are the ones shutting down the right to protest.

I agree with PP that rather than getting bogged down in left and right we should debate the diminishing rights. But that wouldn’t make such a good thread title, would it?

This. Right and left are probably old fashioned ways of thinking now. For example DH and I were discussing only this morning how many environmentalists appear to use far right concepts in regard to climate change e.g. white people with 4 kids on iPhones can rail against birth rates and building factories in developing countries where entire villages use less resources. Or you can get lesbians and gays who take issue with trans now whereas back in the day all of those groups would be bucketed seen as ‘left wing’ causes. It’s not so clear cut these days.

If this is your main concern I suggest you give yourself a stern talking to.

There is no left and right anyway, all parties are practically the same. The right to protest has not been shut down, it was due to the coronation as a matter of security, you could go down with your placards now and start shouting "not my King" no-one would stop you.

I agree

This and you describe my political position too.

That said, the hard left worries me much more than the far right.

Haha. I thought you were concerned about the roof on your very big house!!

??

Compared with where? Saudi Arabia? Iceland?

Yes.

Well said.

’Vulnerable’ used to mean somebody severely disabled or mentally ill, not just somebody who is a single mum or has ADHD (for example).

Society is generally very happy to look after vulnerable people to a high standard. But I think it’s getting tired of everyone claiming vulnerability. Which is now usually just a euphemism for poor life decisions. And of course people relying on the benefit system as a lifestyle choice - because they want to work part time, or pick their kids up from school, or for more ‘me time’. Paid for by everyone else not having those things, of course. Shouting at full time working tax payers that they should be ‘happy to support these vulnerable people’ otherwise they’re ‘right wing’ is pushing them further into the Tories’ arms with regards to benefit cuts and punitive measures for job seekers.

I agree with @Newrumpus , it's about authoritarianism and that exists on both extremes of the political spectrum.

The arrests around the coronation were a clear manifestation of authoritarianism - people being arrested for things they hadn't yet done. It's now been made clear that those arrested will not be prosecuted any further, which if you're an optimist means that the Met has realised they got it very wrong and if you're a pessimist like me means that it was always intended to be nothing more than a show of force to scare anyone away from dissent. We should all be very concerned about this legislation and how it was used last Saturday.

By Western Eyropean standards the current Tories are very right wing. This was not always so, but all the centrists have been thrown out.

Question for all the people here worried about extremists: Do you support changing the electoral system to proportional representation?

Because the huge strength of our present system is that it keeps the deplorables away from the levers of power. Don't believe those who say that PR leads to some cuddly, benign coalition government where every reasonable view is fairly represented. Italy recently elected its most right wing government since WWII. The smallest parties often exert disproportional influence because they end up as King-maker. Think about that next time someone tell you how unfair our electoral system is.

Yes, I do support PR. Yes, you do get some deplorables in coalitions. But to say that Italy is inevitable for all of us is just nonsense. I'm from the Netherlands which has had PR for as long as I've been alive. In that time I've seen several far right parties in parliament, and two offering confidence and supply type arrangements. All of them except the Christen Unie (truly scary hardcore fundamentalist Christians who close down their website on Sundays) have ended up blowing themselves up through internal discord.

And yes, Israel is scary but over there, religion is massively in play and that will always favour the right/authoritarianism.

Italy has always leaned right - Silvio Berlusconi was a very right wing politician.
Meanwhile Greece, which also has PR, is cracking down on its far right.

Meanwhile we have a system where in swathes of the country, people's votes simply do not matter at all. PR isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than FPTP and there is a good reason why most of the world uses PR.

Can't quite work out where you are coming from OP and don't think you are posting in good faith. The current government isn't right wing and you are concerned about 'woke' but are left of centre ....... really ?
The Tory party of old no longer exists and I guess when people consider themselves 'shy tories' it's that incarnation they are thinking of.
The current crew are very different from the one nation lot back in the day when they were happy to tolerate the post war consensus with the emphasis on a decent welfare state, NHS and a certain degree of Keynesian state intervention. Current lot are a weird mix of jingoism (anyone for the National conservatives currently in the news ?), misty eyed nostalgia for the past, free market capitalism, authoritarianism and a dislike of globalism/ immigration. Are they your typical far right no. Are they bloody dangerous, certainly.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/30/national-conservatism-far-right-divisive-tories
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/conservatives/2023/04/andrew-marr-national-conservatism-dead-end-for-tories
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/national-conservatism-is-a-danger-to-the-uk-economy-0zq0wtmqh

@Garethkeenansstapler we aren't living in the 70s or 80s when benefits were far more generous. You are harking back to a benefits system which no longer exists.

I think the line between right wing and left wing has become so muddled in recent years and other issues such as Brexit transcended the traditional right/left split which further confused matters. At the same time though the left/right wing have become more polarised and society as a whole feels much less tolerant of others who don’t feel the same way. I mostly blame Twitter. It’s certainly had a very negative effect on my previously tolerant DH. It’s very worrying to me.

Are you having a laugh about the left shutting down the right?
We have the right wing press screaming hate filled bile at us all from every news stand. It's our right wing government that have introduced laws to limit protest rights and talk about cancelling the BBC.

I'm more worried about the divide and control engineered by governments. Its great for them when everyone is fighting each other, instead of fighting them. Bet they all have a right laugh about how well its working out.

Oh dear.