To worry about the right wing?

[Swingstotheleftslidetotheright]

I'm politically homeless at the moment in terms of who to vote for but morally I sit firmly centre/centre left. I'm very British with that it would seem.

I've seen over the last few years a very hard push left across social media and among the "chattering" classes which has seemingly come with a desire to shut down discussion, debate and conversation if it involves even the mildest of challenge to their way of thinking. What seems to be happening as a result of this shutting down and refusal to engage in a debate is a rise in harder line opposition, whereas before the two sides would have a somewhat heated and healthy discourse about an issue and come away mindful of each others views and with a solution in sight.

I'm noticing the louder the left shout the harder the, previously moderate, right push back and vice versa. Both sides appear to be getting more vocal and more extreme. I'm seeing this a lot around migration, feminism, the economy and crime. I'm now worried that this continued closure of conversation is going to lead us down a path of extremism - from one or both sides - and lead us to a dramatic and unwelcome rise from the far right.

Are we at a point of no return? Can we ever go back to being moderate and tolerant?

I have often found conservative voters much more willing to engage in healthy discussion, listen and accept a change of view than militant labour voters. So many labour voters loudly proclaim to never befriend a Tory, look on dating sites and you'll see "no Tory scum here!"

Yet you don't see it the other way around. Why?

Fwiw I'm not a Tory voter I just despair at the attitudes towards other human beings at times.

It isn't the Democrats who are eroding voting rights and the right of bodily autonomy to women, is it? So I must assume you are a big Republican fangirl.

And comments like this prove my point. It’s all just assumptions and accusations, stretching everything to the most extreme possible outcome.

Watch out, they’ll pop along now to say you’re lying because to show any human understanding of conservative voters means you’re a CLOSET TORY!

And the reason they don’t is because they would be hoisted on their own petard of cancellation and exclusion.

I'm waiting for it. I've already had several accusations levied toward me on this thread

@Lonelycrab Voter ID itself is not strictly about electoral fraud and has never been singled out as a reason for it.

It was the Electoral Commission who stated:

"Evidence collected by the Commission in its review of electoral fraud revealed that fraud is not widespread in the UK but, despite this, a significant proportion of the public remain concerned that it is taking place.

This has the potential to undermine confidence in the electoral system if not addressed. The Commission considered views on a number of options to tighten the electoral system against fraud and is today publishing its final report."

So, it's about increasing voter confidence in our electoral system against a gradually increasing degree of polarisation amongst the population.

Jenny Watson, the then Chair of the Electoral Commission, went on to state:

"Looking ahead, the time has come for England, Scotland and Wales to move towards a requirement for voters to produce ID at polling stations. This would strengthen the system and bring Great Britain into line with Northern Ireland and many countries where this is already in place."

www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-centre/id-needed-polling-stations-recommends-independent-watchdog

We can see in the case of Northern Ireland that voter ID has led to voter confidence in the electoral system. Even though electoral fraud was not widespread. Same goes for European states.

Perception matters. This is usually referred to as "optics" and widely used along the political spectrum.

Voter ID has already been before the UK Supreme Court as well. In short, it is legal, constitutional and democratic just as it is everywhere else. Free Voter Authority Certificates ensure there is no democratic infringement on the right to vote. This is based on Northern Ireland's free voter ID card and it must be said that the Electoral Commission have long held Northern Ireland up as an excellent example of voter ID being successful.

Ad Hominem attacks are never productive in public discourse and easily leads to further, deeper polarisation of society. Who here wants an increasingly partitioned society?

Not me, hence my statement applies to all irrespective of political views.

Abuse of elected representatives as wrong as abuse of the layperson. Such behaviour ensures the democratic system we enjoy remains under sustained pressure and attack.

One day, the system will break under that burden. And the result will not be pretty.

Speech is not entirely harmless....

Mn is particularly bad on this front tbh

Maybe there isn’t anywhere that can do discuss online anymore without it

ime rl discussions are better

It has no impact on my life so it doesn't matter if they do or don't. I'll just put my phone down and ignore the thread if it gets too bad!

But it also proves my point and I have to ask if my concerns are valid. If a subject is uncomfortable the topic gets ignored and the insults come flying (not just on here I've seen it all over the internet).

I find they just make people uncomfortable. I have a very left wing woke friend who asked me to leave her flat because I disagreed that TWAW. I was happy to share my reasons but it’s like she’s accepted the mantra and was panicking that she would have to back it up.

Yes agreed, it smacks of a purity spiral.

I dont know what happens at the end of a purity spiral, did the knitting one end well?

Some of my siblings vote Labour, some Tory.
Some voted for Brexit, some against (with overlap between).

We manage to get along without screaming insults at each other or not speaking.

I really don't see why this cannot be on a wider scale.

It ought to be if you are tolerant and not judgemental. Accept people have different experiences and views.

Bit like religious beliefs, or absence of.

I also find that both sides rely on meaningless mantras which have no explanation or rationale.
‘Brexit means Brexit’
‘Bulldog spirit’
’Tax the rich’
‘Close the loopholes’

Then when you ask for a bit of deeper explanation they can substantiate and get angry.

I really don't see why this cannot be on a wider scale.
Nor do I but there are some issues - brexit in particular, where there is no debate, just abuse on MN.

@DownNative

a significant proportion of the public remain concerned that it is taking place.

I’ve searched online and can’t find any source for how this was ascertained. The PDF relating to the electoral commissions page is not there, and to be honest I find that claim hard to believe.

Voter turnout was significantly down. Let’s see if that’s replicated at the GE.
So you’ve stopped some people from exercising their right to vote, to please those with unfounded fears. Doesn’t seem like a recipe for increasing confidence to me.

I think if you went up to most people and asked this question:
”given that voter fraud convictions are practically non existent in this country, shall we spend £200 million and create a increased burden on polling staff to introducing voter Id, or should we tackle more important issues instead?” The answer would be overwhelmingly no, let’s not waste that money, let’s fix things that need fixing instead.

And I’m presuming that the types of ID needed was specified by the government, and they did it in such a way as to make it easier for older people than young, for obvious reasons.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voter-id-list-gives-few-options-for-younger-voters/

Re voter ID, it isn’t even required with a postal vote! Why is it that those concerned about people being disenfranchised as a result of the requirement to show ID don’t make more of this way round the problem? I only found this out because my DH and I have been voting by post for a number of years now.

I do wonder, though, whether this loophole will be closed come the general election?

completely agree, people in the U.K. like to keep their heads down. But there will be a point at which the majority being told they are disgusting right wing racists for.. I don’t know.. watching the coronation or having an opinion on of 500k immigrants a year moving to an infra-structurally overstretched country is sustainable.. and they will think well in for a penny in for a pound. If you tell people they are awful, what stops them identifying with it, especially if there are lots of people who share that point of view.

I’m far more concerned about the far left at the moment, who seem to be embracing male supremacy and forced speech/thinking. But then the more extreme they get, the more extreme the right are likely to get - they’re two sides of the same coin.

She sounds dreadful and about 14.

It is terrifying how far this insane ideology has got. Pushed hard by the misogynist Left.

The far left are terrifying , absolutely batshit

Both extremes are equally terrifying and equally batshit, and very similar - the horseshoe theory of extremism. Let's not pretend the extreme right doesn't exist and that if they do, they're any better. Extreme of whatever political colour = scary.

Is gender ideology the preserve of the extreme only?

It feels too ubiquitous for that

It probably should be consigned to a minority though

^This with bells on. Particularly when politicians with such extreme views think they are by definition 100% right in what they believe.

That is very true, and it's because some people really don't think what their opinion actually is. You are told to repeat whatever ridiculous three word slogan written for comms.

These very simple messages are simple because they can be remembered but they are divisive. They are actually designed to stop actual thought.

Life is more complicated than- yes or no, good or bad, left or right.

We've been encouraged to forget that

Interesting and topical article.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/09/projection-deception-sunak-staying-in-power-tories