To worry about the right wing?

[Swingstotheleftslidetotheright]

I'm politically homeless at the moment in terms of who to vote for but morally I sit firmly centre/centre left. I'm very British with that it would seem.

I've seen over the last few years a very hard push left across social media and among the "chattering" classes which has seemingly come with a desire to shut down discussion, debate and conversation if it involves even the mildest of challenge to their way of thinking. What seems to be happening as a result of this shutting down and refusal to engage in a debate is a rise in harder line opposition, whereas before the two sides would have a somewhat heated and healthy discourse about an issue and come away mindful of each others views and with a solution in sight.

I'm noticing the louder the left shout the harder the, previously moderate, right push back and vice versa. Both sides appear to be getting more vocal and more extreme. I'm seeing this a lot around migration, feminism, the economy and crime. I'm now worried that this continued closure of conversation is going to lead us down a path of extremism - from one or both sides - and lead us to a dramatic and unwelcome rise from the far right.

Are we at a point of no return? Can we ever go back to being moderate and tolerant?

It is the willingness of large numbers of the population to enthusiastically embrace authoritarianism that worries me, regardless of whether that is from one political extreme or the other. There seem to be lots of people who take far to much glee in seeing those they disagree with face harsh treatment by the state and that is a worry for a true pluralist democracy.

Well said @MillicentBystander2022 The erosion of free speech and right to association and protest is something we should all be concerned about, whether we are coming to this from a right or left wing leaning. Past 13 years it’s been happening under the Tory watch.

I agree Eleganz. The creeping authoritarianism is a huge worry. And people don't seem to be able to stand back and see the damage this causes to individuals and society as a whole.

I too agree about the creeping authoritarianism. It’s very worrying.

I’m more concerned with the far left. You rarely hear “Labour Scum” from centre right, but the centre left use “Tory Scum” liberally. I rarely find people who resort to that kind of ridiculous insult even worth debating. The far left are shutting down debate at all levels of society and embracing cancel culture, this concerns me no end.

Those dirty unemployables went there to spoil the show. Arrest and a big kick up the arse is bang-on.

@Tratjymp i assume you’re a troll and shall ignore you.

The report into the possibility of deaths linked to austerity didn't exactly say what you said.

Fullfact:

https://fullfact.org/health/130000-preventable-deaths-austerity/

https://fullfact.org/health/austerity-120000-unnecessary-deaths/

And the views of two experts on this issue:

http://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-paper-on-health-and-social-care-spending-and-excess-deaths-in-england/

It is not a proven scientific conclusion in reality. But it certainly made for a sensationalist headline for various media publications as well as for rival political parties.

Truth is the first casualty and is usually a good deal more complex.

The UK has both far right and far left in terms of political parties as well as terrorism. Neither Labour nor Conservative fit either one. The reality though is that both parties aren't concretely set in a right or left wing paradigm.

Typing in "Labour right wing", for example, will give you results suggesting under Starmer they're leaning more to the right. Example -

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/30/starmer-labour-rightwingers-control-factional-vendettas

https://socialistworker.co.uk/news/starmer-flies-the-flag-for-right-wing-labour/

Some have argued that British politics is no longer about left and right wings which explains to a degree Labour and Conservatives have policies that's in contradiction of the supposed left-right axis or paradigm.

Lee de Wit, a lecturer in political psychology at Cambridge University, argues this here:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/11/politics-left-right-tories-advantage-labour

I think Starmer has realised its not about left or right and he's moved Labour in the right direction. Mind you, some like the two examples in the SOCIALISTWORKER.CO.UK and Owen Jones haven't caught up with Starmer yet which explains the criticisms he's had.

Sadly, plenty of people believe exactly what they have written though.

Lots of British people quite happy to see other groups deprived of their basic rights in the name of expediency and not challenging the status quo.

@Eleganz sadly true. Well said.

Right and left have always talked across each other. The right believe that the left are deluded and naively idealistic. The left believe that the right are somehow lacking in empathy, even in basic humanity. The only way to break this impasse is to talk to people from the other side - and social media currently makes this more difficult.

Once you look at it objectively, it's easy to see. The right and left in terms of government are one and the same. Both sides use the public as pawns for their own agenda, and neither give a shit about us.

The left will destroy the world with wars, destabilisation and total capitulation. The right will destroy the world with elitism, poverty and population control. Lose lose, really.

When the public of left and right figure that out collectively, maybe we'll be able to unite and actually move forward and progress. Until then, may as well try and enjoy the bumpy ride to destruction.

Speaking as someone who's not lived in the UK for 28 years what I'd wish for you is a grown up, boring government that does not rely on personalities and three word soundbites but on long term, well thought out and properly funded policies for the good of the majority, leaving the minority issues such as trans and woke for people to work out for themselves. Sexuality and ideological thinking are not the concern of government.

Free speech, right to protest and association are not unlimited rights or anything like that. The Human Rights Act is clear on that.

The right to freedom of thought (Article 9) - is a mixed right. This means you can believe what you want - absolute right - but you cannot act on your thoughts and make them reality - non-absolute right.

For example, we shouldn't have a Monarchy or that terrorism is justified. Neither of these can be acted on lawfully.

The right to freedom of expression (Article 10) and the right to freedom of assembly (Article 11) are non-absolute rights. They can be restricted in circumstances that are lawful, legitimate and proportionate.

Freedom Of Speech is also non-absolute since none of us have a right to say whatever we want without consequences. We can be held liable or prosecuted for it.

People often make the mistake of thinking all of these things are absolute, guaranteed rights. They are not and never have been.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/public-order-bill-overarching-documents/public-order-bill-factsheet

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/16/policing-bill-britons-support-proposed-new-police-

Ignored enough to actually post a reply to them.

By the way, did you feel the same about the liberty of millions being removed when they were locked in their homes, despite it having no benefit to public health? Or are only certain liberties worth protecting?

@DownNative thanks for the explanation but the long and short of it is that the Tories are eroding those rights, such as they were.

It's happening allready it seems

Polarisation of viewpoints ..

Even people wanting to carry posters /banners Not my king , Anti monotheistic, at least one was arrested, could be few or some others too,
not sure,

So right bedrock to Decomocracey right to protest has been eroded so much..
Sneaky back door way of going more control of the top players , The Gov ,ect

It's been happening for a while, but it was not so blatantly obvious back then,

@Swrigh1234 I don’t get it. I can tell someone that I won’t engage further. You’re welcome to engage and disengage with posters in your own style.

This

Just speaking up about anything is like skating ⛸️ on very thin 🧊 ice..

It's like allmost like , well getting there , like middle East mindset of thinking when it comes to communication now, It's so heavy handed reaction,
from society, if someone doesn't agree with you ,
It's very unpredictable, and bloody 😱 scarey,
Its upsetting and like getting the wrath of God's or something, !
Harry Potters Author , experince from certain extreme Transwomen, section of society, about difference of biological women and transwomen springs to mind..

You can't even have serious debates at L.o.l. 😄 at universities, that's how ridiculous 🙄 these ideas 💡 have taken...

I thought universities were often 🤔 about debates ect...

Oops typo omissions "of hold" I ment to say

It is possible to sit where I sit politically and be concerned about hard left and also objectively view the centre right and extremism. It's kind of the whole point of this thread, that the ability to be objective and have a discussion is being lost these days.

Absolutely. It's the "if you don't agree with me we will shun you from society forever more" that's scary. We appear to be in a time where people are more tolerant of historical "casual" racism "it's just how they were then" than saying women don't have penises. It's a strange state to be in!

Stating so doesn't mean it corresponds to reality.

The fact is protests over the past few years has become much more problematic for society. The costs of policing them have increased by a considerable margin in response to the escalation of protest behaviour. £14 million is now spent on Just Stop Oil protests and £37 million was spent on Extinction Rebellion in 2019.

The right to protest is NOT absolute and these people have no actual right to disrupt others from going about their lawful business. This is something you're NOT addressing at all.

The law always evolves to address evolutions in human behaviour. In this case, increasingly extreme behaviour associated with protest groups.

Bear in mind this has always been excellent cover for militants as history shows. It's right to enable our security forces to more effectively deal with them under certain circumstances. The only argument then is how far should we go and even then that is very much dependent on the prevailing circumstances.