Page 7 | To think this is not what parental leave is for?

Friendlybreadbin · 2023-05-03T20:07:33+00:00

I may well BU but interested in people’s opinions. My company offers a fairly standard 25 days plus bank holidays leave package. New colleague comes from a company where they had been for over 20 years and so had got up to 30 days, their old company also offered a ‘buy an additional 10 days leave’ package. Our company doesn’t. Having passed their 3 month probation period (where they also took a lot of leave) they are using leave days like they are going out of fashion, and have already had a skiing holiday and an all inclusive this year. As well as lots of other random days off, it’s seems rare they work a full week. Have been openly saying that they intend to take unpaid leave because they can’t see how they will possibly manage on 25 days when they were used to 40 days and asking how does anyone do that with kids? I have not dissimilar aged kids and have managed with 25 days for my whole career. There are no special needs or circumstances. Their job is flexible and from home. AIBU that they should learn to manage within their holiday allowance that they accepted by contract? Or as the extra leave is unpaid is this an acceptable strategy? It seems to me they intend to exploit parental leave just because they feel entitled to more holiday than they are contracted to have. Our company charges customers rates for their time and will therefore lose revenue as we can’t charge when they are OOO. I am their line manager. I have managed people for 20 years and have never come across anyone with this attitude before, when I have managed people who have taken parental leave it has been for understandable reasons.

OMG12 · 04/05/2023 08:40

ArticMonkeyBusiness · 04/05/2023 08:31

As an ex-HR Manager and HR Consultant, I am yet to come across a company that genuinely gives a shit about its staff. They will happily oust you, as soon as their profits drop.

Also, employees are either fully aware of their rights and entitlements or take the piss. My own workplace is a good example. I have the least sickness in my operation. 1 day in 3 years. Others have months and months of sickness and despite a clear HR policy, it is not enforced. Some of the people I work with are off with headaches, and lack of sleep (from clubbing to 4 am) and some are genuine. I end up doing both their and my work and we are already short-staffed as it is. I get my holiday rejected as we don't have enough staff at those times.

So, I've decided to look at our HR and see what the guidelines are. I have a few things I need to do, and I won't get the holiday approved, so I'll be throwing a sickie. It is not something I have ever done, but at some point if you can't beat them, you have to join them.

Tbh, I realised the employers don’t give a shit about their employees a long time ago. I’ve seen so many people basically give their lives to the job then get ousted because of the economy whilst the partners maintain their income.

dmaller firms might be a bit better but larger firms, happy to make it work for me, it’s not a two way relationship. Never become emotionally attached to your job. If you died next week they would have forgotten about you in less than a month once the admins over.

Didtheythough · 04/05/2023 08:45

I usually take at least 1 week of unpaid parental leave a year (I have 30 days annual leave and flexi time) I use parental leave to cover a half term. Me taking leave doesn't impact my team, I don't ask anyone to cover anything whilst I'm off. If that's the case for your colleague then what's the problem? People have lives outside of work.

TheKobayashiMaru · 04/05/2023 08:53

I'd find it hard to move to an organisation with less leave than I have now. You get used to it.

SuseB · 04/05/2023 09:08

My DH works for a big company that has generous AL entitlements and buy-back. We have 3DC and he has taken at least a week of unpaid parental leave and often more in every year since the oldest was a baby. Obviously he earns less money that month but the extra family time has been invaluable especially when the DC were small as looking after them was hard work. There are some calculations to do to work out if you are better off buying back holiday, or taking unpaid parental leave (eg bought-back holiday does allow you to take odd days here and there as it's just added to your normal holiday entitlement) - some years we have done a combination of both to maximise time off/convenience/childcare etc. I am self-employed so have always been flexible. Interestingly as a man he's never had any grief at all about any of his leave arrangements, even though he works in a male-dominated industry and few of his colleagues have used their entitlements this way. He has also worked part-time (4 days per week) since youngest was born. No complaints from the company about his commitment/performance, he is always rated incredibly highly in reviews.

pollykitty · 04/05/2023 09:28

I used to line manage a woman who had a part-time contract for 3 days a week and was forever trying to add on to her holiday allowance or trying to take 3-week holidays (which were not allowed). She mainly did this by working ‘extra’ days on her days off and then taking them back for holiday. It drove me crazy. You can say ‘what’s wrong with that’ but my view was it gave her an unfair contract compared with full time employees who could not work extra days (eg bank holidays or at the weekend) to improve their holiday allowance. If she didn’t get what she wanted, she would take parental leave etc - fine, whatever. But basically she constantly acted very entitled and like she didn’t need to accommodate her colleagues when she wanted to go on holiday. I eventually asked that she be transferred to another manager because I didn’t want to deal with her constant ‘requests’ anymore.

TheYearOfSmallThings · 04/05/2023 09:41

She mainly did this by working ‘extra’ days on her days off and then taking them back for holiday. It drove me crazy. You can say ‘what’s wrong with that’ but my view was it gave her an unfair contract compared with full time employees who could not work extra days

I have to say this could be me - I work 3 days and often work on my non-work days to make up for missed days (strikes, chickenpox etc). Yes it is not possible for colleagues who work full time to do this, but then that is why I work part time and they earn nearly twice as much. I sacrifice the extra pay to make my life manageable, so I don't think it is unfair.

Snoopsnoggysnog · 04/05/2023 10:28

evuscha · 04/05/2023 06:37

Ahh, I live in the US now where 10-15 days is a norm if you’re lucky! I probably come across similarly when talking about my days in Europe and 25 days + bank holidays. 40 I can’t even imagine but sounds like a dream.

I think if eligible then parental leave can be used for anything, so if it’s yet another skiing trip, then so be it.

This is one of the reasons I could never live in the US! How do you manage school holidays?

Snoopsnoggysnog · 04/05/2023 10:35

MrsPinkCock · 04/05/2023 08:36

I’m an employment lawyer so I was aware of this right fairly early on and I’ve taken parental leave myself to spend time with the kids in school holidays.

It used to only apply to children under 5 though (or 18 for a disabled child) and wasn’t as generous as 18 weeks. Even so, spread over your child’s “young” life, it’s only an extra week a year (and it isn’t per employer, it’s a cumulative entitlement, so you couldn’t take your 18 weeks, move to another job and take another 18 weeks - although I suspect it’s never checked)

It’s still rarely used though and employers can put blocks in the way of you taking it. For example you might need the leave for childcare during school holidays, but if it clashed with another employee already on leave then they’d be within their rights to postpone it to another time where less employees are on leave outside of the school holidays (which makes it far less useful).

Then if you’re in an industry like mine, full of old school boys, you’ll be judged heavily for using it (although ironically my male colleague was judged far more heavily than I was and ended up cancelling his leave as a result). On one request I also had an HR Manager ask me “why did you take a full time job if you want part time hours?”

It made my working life a lot easier though when it was actually approved so I think it’s a good thing! Hopefully things have moved on a bit and it isn’t as frowned on now as when I took it 10 years ago.

This is interesting because I have always wondered how it works or how your employer could check if you’ve gone over the entitlement. Is there a record anywhere?

I took 3 months off one summer years ago just before my twins started reception, using 3 weeks holiday and 9 weeks parental leave. I then took a bit more leave a few years later but I can’t remember how much - maybe two weeks. This summer I’m planning to take 6 weeks parental leave. So in theory I will probably have used 17 weeks of my 36 weeks but how can this be checked? I mean I think it’s really unlikely I’d ever exceed 36 weeks - my twins are teens now - but you never know.

does anyone know the answer to this?

TooOldForThisNonsense · 04/05/2023 10:48

Snoopsnoggysnog · 04/05/2023 10:35

This is interesting because I have always wondered how it works or how your employer could check if you’ve gone over the entitlement. Is there a record anywhere?

I took 3 months off one summer years ago just before my twins started reception, using 3 weeks holiday and 9 weeks parental leave. I then took a bit more leave a few years later but I can’t remember how much - maybe two weeks. This summer I’m planning to take 6 weeks parental leave. So in theory I will probably have used 17 weeks of my 36 weeks but how can this be checked? I mean I think it’s really unlikely I’d ever exceed 36 weeks - my twins are teens now - but you never know.

does anyone know the answer to this?

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As far as I know there isn’t - it depends on employees being honest with employers!

Original poster

Friendlybreadbin · 04/05/2023 10:59

NotAnotherBathBomb · 04/05/2023 08:00

Side note but interesting to see some PPs have referred to the employee as 'she'. In my head they were clearly male but I've just reread the OP to see they've not mentioned sex

I left gender out deliberately - and yes, a lot of people have assumed colleague is female. They are actually male. Also, the holiday they have taken is not actually all to spend time with their child - the skiing holiday was with mates and multiple random days off have been when the kids are at school. They plan to have the unpaid leave for the time with the children.

And to those who didn’t read the OP, I am the manager and the absences are causing issues for the business.

I will take it on board that I am deemed by many to BU and adapt my style accordingly, whilst still trying to meet the needs of the business.

OP posts:

GeraltsBathtub · 04/05/2023 11:02

Also, the holiday they have taken is not actually all to spend time with their child - the skiing holiday was with mates and multiple random days off have been when the kids are at school. They plan to have the unpaid leave for the time with the children

You’ve written this like they are being unreasonable. They can take their leave entitlement to do whatever they want!

SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 04/05/2023 11:13

Friendlybreadbin · 04/05/2023 10:59

I left gender out deliberately - and yes, a lot of people have assumed colleague is female. They are actually male. Also, the holiday they have taken is not actually all to spend time with their child - the skiing holiday was with mates and multiple random days off have been when the kids are at school. They plan to have the unpaid leave for the time with the children.

And to those who didn’t read the OP, I am the manager and the absences are causing issues for the business.

I will take it on board that I am deemed by many to BU and adapt my style accordingly, whilst still trying to meet the needs of the business.

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Annual leave can be used to do whatever they want. Whether that's skiing with friends or family holidays or recovering from a hangover. If it's been approved it's their day to do whatever they want.

I'm not sure what they rules are for taking parental leave or unpaid leave...doesn't it still need to be approved? It's not like they can just ring you up and tell you they aren't coming in as that's an unauthorised absence. If they chose to use up all their paid annual leave and leave none left for a family holiday then that's their choice.

If it's affecting business so much, why have you approved so much leave so far?

brunettemic · 04/05/2023 11:15

Funnily enough I assumed this was a male. If you’re the line manager this is entirely within your control, unpaid leave is always at the discretion of the company and you can reject it.

PerceptionIsReality · 04/05/2023 11:17

FGS. My firm offers unlimited holiday and is trialling 100-80-100. I have billable hours and margin KPIs. If I don't meet them I am held accountable but it has nothing to do with whether I don't work Friday afternoons and start late on a Monday or take 7 weeks holiday per year.

Learn to manage in the 21st century.

Snoopsnoggysnog · 04/05/2023 11:18

brunettemic · 04/05/2023 11:15

Funnily enough I assumed this was a male. If you’re the line manager this is entirely within your control, unpaid leave is always at the discretion of the company and you can reject it.

People aren’t reading the thread. You cannot reject parental leave but you can reject unpaid leave.

Snoopsnoggysnog · 04/05/2023 11:19

Friendlybreadbin · 04/05/2023 10:59

I left gender out deliberately - and yes, a lot of people have assumed colleague is female. They are actually male. Also, the holiday they have taken is not actually all to spend time with their child - the skiing holiday was with mates and multiple random days off have been when the kids are at school. They plan to have the unpaid leave for the time with the children.

And to those who didn’t read the OP, I am the manager and the absences are causing issues for the business.

I will take it on board that I am deemed by many to BU and adapt my style accordingly, whilst still trying to meet the needs of the business.

Show quote history

You can say no to the unpaid leave. If he’s been there less than a year he’s not eligible for parental leave. You can manage this.

brunettemic · 04/05/2023 11:21

Snoopsnoggysnog · 04/05/2023 11:18

People aren’t reading the thread. You cannot reject parental leave but you can reject unpaid leave.

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From what I can she in OP’s posts she is assuming the request will be for parental leave but refers to the colleague stating they’ll take unpaid leave. It’s a fairly easy situation to manage given she has all the info.

dementedpixie · 04/05/2023 11:24

The leave they are currently taking is not parental leave as they haven't been there 1 year yet plus it needs to be taken in blocks of at least 1 week at a time.

You dont need to ok the requests for odd days here and there if it isn't suiting the business needs. You are allowed to say no! Have they been there long enough for the number of holidays they have requested already?

ShinyAppleDreamingOfTheSea · 04/05/2023 11:26

I work in a public service organisation which is fairly flexible - however, any leave requested is dependent on service requirements. We would only be allowed unpaid leave for an actual emergency or for something like a once in a lifetime extended holiday and this would be agreed between worker and manager well in advance with the requesting worker also having to consider impact on the service and suggestions as to how this would be accommodated.

NotAnotherBathBomb · 04/05/2023 11:37

Sissynova · 04/05/2023 08:14

Taking time off work to spend it with your children and take them on holiday us “male behaviour”?

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It was more the boldly announcing that they’d be taking more time off as it just wasn’t enough, for me.

Soakitup37 · 04/05/2023 11:38

Op sounds jealous frankly; if the employee is following the rules of the company it’s none of her business how that leave is spent even if there is any rule bending going on.

instead of getting in a fuss over it perhaps op could consider how this option might suit them if appropriate? If it were me I’d be very keen to get a better work/life balance.

TooOldForThisNonsense · 04/05/2023 11:50

NotAnotherBathBomb · 04/05/2023 11:37

It was more the boldly announcing that they’d be taking more time off as it just wasn’t enough, for me.

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This

TooOldForThisNonsense · 04/05/2023 11:53

And to those who didn’t read the OP, I am the manager and the absences are causing issues for the business

do your job and manage him then. He doesn’t have (unless there’s a massive drip feed coming) to take time off unpaid or all his as yet unaccrued leave when it suits him, at times it doesn’t suit the business. Start saying no.

Sissynova · 04/05/2023 12:10

Friendlybreadbin · 04/05/2023 10:59

I left gender out deliberately - and yes, a lot of people have assumed colleague is female. They are actually male. Also, the holiday they have taken is not actually all to spend time with their child - the skiing holiday was with mates and multiple random days off have been when the kids are at school. They plan to have the unpaid leave for the time with the children.

And to those who didn’t read the OP, I am the manager and the absences are causing issues for the business.

I will take it on board that I am deemed by many to BU and adapt my style accordingly, whilst still trying to meet the needs of the business.

Show quote history

Most of this is just totally irrelevant. It’s none of your business what he does with his annual leave! It doesn’t matter if all 20 days were used for pissups with his mates, he’s still allowed to request unpaid parental leave once he is contractually eligible.

And if the current annual leave usage is causing problems for the business why are you approving it? Honestly this either comes down to terrible management or you just getting riled up by this guy and finding fault with everything.
If you are his manager you have approved his leave and now you’re bitching about it? You just sound like an awful manager to work for.
And his annual leave impacting business needs really makes no sense, everyone in the company has the same amount of annual leave so they company should be able to function if they use it.
If he has frontloaded his annual leave it just means he will be covering for others who take theirs in the summer or later in the year surely?

Bunnycat101 · 04/05/2023 12:10

It does read though that you are judging his annual leave. You ultimately have approved the leave he has taken. It is none of your business whether he has taken it for worthy reasons or taken it to sit in his pants watching tv. If it is causing issues re the business then you shouldn’t have approved it as his line manager- that is your responsibility and not his.

If you have expectations about when leave is taken that should be spelt out upfront. For what it is worth, I think 25 days is on the stingy side. My husband has 26 and finds it a struggle. I am now on 28 but started my current job on 25 and the extra 3 days makes quite a big difference.