Do you think teachers are paid too little?

[Looooop]

I've just read an article about a teacher (presumably who wasn't on MP1) who has to take on 2 other jobs to make ends meet.
I'm sure I'll get flamed, but ECTs start on 28k. I and other people live on way less than that, I don't understand why an experienced teacher of a few years should need 2 extra jobs?

They are because they're choosing to leave. If they were being paid enough they'd stay. I want my children and all children to have a good education, which means the country investing in that education. If we value education we should be paying teachers enough that they stay and teach.

Besides being indifferently paid, teaching has become an absolutely shit job! Burgeoning workloads, unrealistic expectations, 100+ hour weeks, atrocious behaviour, underfunded or lack of resources, I could go on.

Not to mention, indifferent or antagonists managements, which cannot or will not recognise and address problems in schools, class sizes approaching forty.,etc

I am STEM and known many people leave my company in favour of teaching due to the high wage and great pension (also had a couple leave to the NHS for the same reason)

At the risk of sounding like an old fart, when I started school in the mid-Fifties, most of us had at least the basics of reading and writing.

When I was at school the class size limit was 28. We all thought class sizes would get smaller as the years went on.

There should be more difference of pay between different teachers. A graduate with a 2:1 degree in Maths from a prestigious university could get a lot more money and opportunities in other profession that a graduate with a 2:2 in a less academically rigorous subject from a low ranked Uni

The pension and the long holidays are big pluses. Otherwise I'm not sure if they are underpaid or not. It's not a job I could do.

@noblegiraffe I know the lockdown increased the number of kids with MH problems. I think most occupations have fallen behind in terms of pay rises. I know there are a lot of shortage areas at Secondary. I still now, 4 1/2 years after leaving teaching, get pleading emails asking if I want to come back to teach and examine again. I have had 4 such emails this last year alone from teaching agencies. AQA are even worse, emails, letters and phone calls. I tell them I have done my share.

I’ve been teaching for 15 years in SE England. We can only afford for me to be a teacher because DH has a much better paying job with much better prospects. That’s the reality.

Based on double my salary, we wouldn’t be able to own a home. We would manage renting, but life wouldn’t be comfortable.

Then the parents need to come into school to change their kids nappies every day until they get them toilet trained. I was a secondary teacher but if primary teacher I'd refuse as not in the job description. I'd be on the phone to get the parents to come in and do it.

@noblegiraffe I get emails from schools and agencies, even though I am in my early 70s and retired long ago. Of course, none have offered me any money; they expect me to work for free.

@caringcarer , it has been ruled to be discriminatory to make any stipulation about toileting in state education - whether that a child must be toilet trained or that a parent must be called for changes.

I was around - involved in pre-school not as a teacher - when this change was made, and at the time it was an improvement as it meant children with SEN affecting continence were no longer unfairly excluded from educational settings such as pre-schools. However, over the intervening 20 years or so, it has had an unintended consequence in terms of allowing parents to toilet train much water or not at all, even where no SEN affecting continence is present.

However, the law is as it is, so your proposal would be illegal.

…much later… apologies for typo.

Schools are struggling to recruit and retain staff. That's usually taken as a sign that either pay is too low, conditions are too poor, or that there's a combination of both issues.

My neighbour teaches at an independent boarding school. While some private schools pay considerably well, his pegs its wages to the Welsh pay scales. They're not struggling to recruit, so clearly the better conditions (smaller class sizes and less bumph) are more than enough to compensate for the wages. He certainly doesn't have anything like the volume of marking to do compared with his oppos in state schools.

That won't work for all areas, as this isn't an expensive place to live, but it shows that the issues are both about pay AND conditions. Address both and we'll have happy teachers and happy kids.

Well, to put it in perspective, I'm in a job experiencing mass shortages of labour (trucking) and I get £40k for a circa 7.5hr shift. I'm content with the pay as I've got no kids and the job is almost zero stress now I'm used to it - spend two hours waiting for roads to be closed, load up, and then deliver to quarry and off home.

I could be getting a fair bit more if I wanted to push myself a bit. Guy I know is getting £200 a day delivering booze to hotels/pubs etc and has a driver's mate to help him.

So, yeah, to me £28k or £32k seems quite low given the short supply, additional hours worked at home, and the general stress.

That makes no sense. You can’t ’ strike on behalf of other people. That’s called a general election. There’s a reason so many professions are striking. I’m a teacher but I’m in my late 50s - my years of house buying and childcare were in a very different landscape when these things were manageable on a teacher’s salary. I’m also lucky in that I’m in a school That values experience so won’t be managed out. But I earn 50k after 27 years which isn’t a lot for my qualifications and experience.

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about whether they get paid enough or not.

If the pay and conditions are right, there won't be a teacher shortage 🤷‍♀️

If society wants teachers / nurses etc - how much you want to be paid to do it - someone has to?

The job is anything as ‘directed by the headteacher’

My neighbour teaches at an independent boarding school. While some private schools pay considerably well, his pegs its wages to the Welsh pay scales. They're not struggling to recruit, so clearly the better conditions (smaller class sizes and less bumph) are more than enough to compensate for the wages. He certainly doesn't have anything like the volume of marking to do compared with his oppos in state schools

But they have endless open evenings and have to give up Saturdays.

You said, So I accept teachers should be paid more, but if it’s a surprise to anyone once they’ve already trained then they should’ve done some research beforehand. So do tell us what research someone could have done 10 years ago or 15 years ago or whatever so that their pay now isn't a surprise.

Saw an ad at McDonald's in my town for £11.75 an hour. A 40 hour week turns in £24,440 a year at that rate.

So you get a degree, go to teacher training college for an additional year and start on less than £4k more than a fast food worker while being expected to put in huge amounts of additional hours unpaid and
have to deal with hugely laborious accountability procedures.

Yet we still have people in this country that think teachers are overpaid and can't see why people are leaving the profession in droves.

People expect to have professionals delivering public services but the want to pay fast food wages and treat them like shit as well. It is hardly rocket science why we are having issues.

I'll be honest, I don't believe you or you are working for an organisation that pays really badly (contract lab?). I've worked in STEM for almost 20 years and the only know one person who went into teaching as "semi-retirement" for a few years (didn't last long). I do, however, know a lot of ex-STEM teachers working in other STEM careers now.

I work in employment law, specialising in the public sector. IME lower-ranking teaching staff (who are not necessarily the least experienced) are underpaid and over-worked, at the expense of managers and, increasingly CEOs of MATs etc. IMO the budgetary resources which go into educational organisations are distributed in a highly unfair way which is not conducive to equality and staff motivation.

Yes I think so. My mum was a teacher and did a huge amount of overtime!

They are quitting, that's exactly the issue.

When the private sector can't recruit (as with lorry drivers) it puts wages up because failing to provide a service would put them out of business.

When the government can't recruit, it dithers. It doesn't care if the service is failing.