To not forgive her this time?

[GuineaPigPosie]

Hi,

I work in an early years setting and this afternoon, one of my colleagues who is twice my age (50s), raised her voice at me, swore at me, told me I was a lazy, a joke, and pathetic, in front of four children and several members of staff. All because I asked for a another colleague to grab me some bits and pieces and give me a hand whilst we were BOTH ON OUR LUNCH BREAKS whilst I was clearing up a child after he had a poo accident all over the bathroom floor. Managers heard her shouting at me to "shut up" from the other side of the building. A parent also heard.

I tried to explain my side, I asked her not to shout, I said there were children watching, she carried on going. I did not raise my voice. One of the children who had witnessed (2 years old) spent a large part of the afternoon crying but when asked, wasn't sure why. Colleague who shouted left the building and went home early. Managers got my side of the tale and then reviewed CCTV over the course of a few hours, got colleague's side of the story and determined I did nothing wrong. As far as I know nothing happens to her, she hasn't had a warning, we were told to move on.

This isn't the first time this has happened. This is probably the fourth or fifth time in less than a year she has done this sort of thing. She has sworn at me and shouted at me in front of several children, then stormed off. It's often over trivial things such as me telling her a bike is unsafe without a pedal. I'm autistic and often don't realise when maybe my opinion isn't wanted, but the safety of the children always come first, regardless of what staff think. Managers said she takes it out on me because she likes me and knows I'll still always be there for her.

and it's true, I tell myself "not this time" but I always move forward. AIBU to not forgive her? She hurt me, and there's no talk of an apology. Managers clearly don't expect her to say sorry, and she has made no moves to apologise. They've told me she'll be anxious all weekend because of what she's done. Well maybe she shouldn't have done it!!! I have no doubt there are children going home tonight telling their parents that X yelled at GuineaPigPosie at nursery today. We're supposed to be a safe space for our children and she has taken that away from them. I'm so annoyed that I keep allowing myself to relax and forgive her. Managers want us to have an informal chat just to clear the air on Tuesday, but truthfully I am not interested in speaking to her.

FWIW, I have no intentions of staying in my current workplace come September. If it weren't for my current key children I would be gone. But I need to see them off to school. And then I'm gone. If it wasn't for the children I adore, today would have had me writing my notice to hand in on Tuesday.

Thank you for reading.

AIBU to not forgive her this time, and to tell her that if it happens again, I'll be filing a grievance?

Report to Ofsted.

Raise a grievance.

Leave. Nursery jobs are ten a penny, chances are you’ll get another within a week with a hefty bonus to move too.

She’s a bully because management let her get away with it over and over again, not because of anything you’ve done. You’ve forgiven her and tried to keep the workplace as harmonious as possible for the children’s sake, that is extremely commendable. Even more commendable is that you’ll stay until you’ve seen them off to school, id not have the strength to do that. You don’t deserve to be treated this way and I hope you find a new nursery that will be so much better for you

I think people sometimes misunderstand the idea of forgiveness. Forgiveness is just mentally 'letting someone go' for the sake of your own mental peace but that doesn't mean there isn't consequences for the person's actions.

So yes I think you can relax and 'forgive' her but at the same time pursue a grievance or a complaint. You're not doing it to spite her or upset her, you're doing it to protect the safe feeling of the work context which is important for the children in your care.

So forgiveness and ensuring a wrongdoing is made right are two things which can be done at the same time.

You should put a complaint in HR for bullying and harrassment. You should start documenting all these incidents as evidence.

Errr?! I get The Rage but I don't take it out on my colleagues. There's no excuse for bullying and belittling someone else.

This was incredibly unprofessional. I have previously worked as a manager in an early years setting and would not have been happy about this happening and would be even more annoyed that it happened in front of children and parents.
From a parents point of view I would be disgusted in members of staff shouted at each other and swore in front of children and I’d be speaking to management and moving my child.
I don’t expect all staff to get along and have found when it’s a heavy female workforce that there are often disagreements but there needs to be a proper system in place to air those grievances in a professional manner. We would hold staff meetings in which we would discuss any problems. The staff would go to the managers in advance and say if they felt another member of staff wasn’t doing their job and we would observe them.

The managers should not be making you feel like you need to apologise to them. It is their job to get to the bottom of it
Right now this is not a case of you choosing to forgive her or not. She will continue to do it as you’re younger and she knows she can get away with it if she tells them she like you.

Don’t hold off filling in a grievance form. I would do it now and speak to management about progressing it. This woman has done this 4/5 times. She will wait a couple of months to do it again but she will do it again.

I wouldn’t be speaking to any parents about it if I were you, I would leave it to them to complain or management to discuss it with them. My worry is if you speak to parents about it then you will be putting fuel into the fire that is not a happy and secure environment for the children. This will then spread like wildfire amongst parents and you will be seen as the trouble maker by your managers.

I will draft the letter this weekend and speak to my parents for support in what to write

Errr - unless your parents are HR professionals, why not contact your union for advice instead?

As PPs have said, "drawing a line under it" isn't management's decision to make, especially as this is happening repeatedly. Continuing to employ this horror and putting children at risk wouldn't be an option for anyone with sense, so you really do need proper advice

And unless we want menopausal women to join women with kids as people to avoid in some employers' minds, can we please stop suggesting this is just something to expect?

If CCTV, witnesses and repeat offences haven’t been enough of a prompt for leadership to resolve her behaviour I suspect raising a grievance will just add to that list and ultimately be a frustrating experience for you.

If you’re 100% planning on leaving I’d make all decisions from this point around getting through the time left and making sure you get a positive reference rather than trying to change the workplace culture as it sounds you’d be trying to turn a ship around.

Your managers’ reaction to this is shit.

The bottom line is that she should NOT be behaving like this in front of any children at any time, anywhere, just a a decent human being. Never mind behaving this way in her role as a professional nursery worker. That's 100 times worse! I clearly remember when I was three years old, there was a very angry teacher at my nursery and I was so upset by her shouting I would cry going in there every day until eventually my mum took me out and I ended up only having a few months there before I started school. I remember it so vividly! Don't let those children suffer, get the grievance letter in. This is really important.

That it completely unfair to women, and to menopausal women in particular. This sort of behaviour is not attributable to the menopause and we are doing ourselves no favours by suggesting it is some sort of norm. Look at all the menopausal women who carry on working in extremely responsible jobs and jobs requiring sensitivity and manners to others without behaving like this.

Formal complaint every time
your managers are useless
poor u and poor children

No way is that the menopause,who ever is letting her of the hook with menopause in the wild ,needs their head read
rediculous

I call ACAS for advice.

Do your employers know that you have autism? If so then they should be extremely nervous considering their behaviour. If you left you could then claim unfair dismissal even if you've worked there less than two years due to you having autism .

PLEASE PLEASE CALL ACAS for proper advice though. Mumsnetters are often very helpful but don't know the facts.

100% report to OFSTED.

This is beyond acceptable. Children should not be subjected to this sort of behaviour.

And also log a formal grievance ASAP!

I was initially thinking you should raise a grievance immediately, and get concrete measures in writing from your management about how they'll prevent this from happening again.

Btw, the reason she 'loves' you is that she knows that she can get away with treating you like shit.

And I'm sure your management also love that they don't have to deal with a tricky staffing situation. The type of situation they are paid to deal with. That's why they're telling you to drop it: for their own selfish reasons.

But this is workplace bullying, and it's illegal. Get angry, and use that anger to change your situation.

I may be way off the mark here, OP - but do you have a protected characteristic such as race or religion? Some bullies choose a victim with some kind of 'difference' to pick on, especially if that difference makes them less likely to stick up for themselves - either due to the victim's feeling of vulnerability or a cultural aversion to conflict. This is also very clearly illegal, and you would be in a very strong position to protect yourself legally if so.

But actually, I think this workplace just sounds awful. And there is huge demand for your skills. I think you should use this weekend instead to update your CV and apply for new jobs. The kids will of course be sad to see you go, but they'll be fine. There's always a reason to stay - it's a trap.

If I was you, I would report colleague & your incompetent management team to Care Commission & SSSC - that's what they are there for. Your colleague should never be in any care profession. She is unprofessional & out of order.

As an early years worker I am shocked my this and horrified by the lack of action being taken by management. Behaving like that in front of children in a nursery setting is a safeguarding issue. I would be angry if an adult who is supposed to be caring for children behaved like that in front of my son. I would strongly suggest that you contact your local authority and ask to speak to the LADO (Local authority designated safeguarding office) and explain what has happened. Or contact OFSTED ASAP. Behaviour like that should not be tolerated in a professional setting. Good luck!

This Menopause shit is so fucking annoying. Over a century of fighting to be treated like sentient human beings and then all some people want to do is take us back to where women are seen as inherently defective due to their ovaries and uterus.

OP, she's an arsehole and no, you do not have to forgive her - she's bullying you, probably on the basis of you having a Protected Characteristic and your employers are failing to act effectively on this discrimination. A formal complaint about her discriminating against and bullying you is absolutely something you can do. And it could even be argued that your decision to leave (albeit the time period at the moment is a little long - but odds are she'll do it again nearer the time) shows that their failing to act on it amounts to constructive dismissal of a person covered by the terms of the Equality Act 2010.

But that’s no excuse to swear in front of children — ever. She’s a professional and should act professionally. You paint your professional face on every workday. From someone who was a teacher all through ( early) menopause.

OP, File a grievance in writing, very calm and factual. Point out exactly what you’ve said that she has violated the children’s safe space.

Is there a HR team you can speak with at your work? Her behaviour is unacceptable and frankly so it’s the mangers for not supporting you and taking action - report her and go through the official channels. Best of luck

Forgive? Like it’s your place of work. She’s not a friend that shouted at you. Nope, even if she’s going through some horrible stuff she should know better. Also, if my child was at your early childhood setting, I’d be complaining to Ofsted. Absolutely no children should witness it. Definitely take grievance and take employer to court (my colleague did it when she got signed off for stress)

Why are you apologising to the managers OP, you did nothing wrong.

I'd go in on Tuesday and say you've had chance to digest and file a grievance, is there anyway you could be put in a different part of the classroom or shift to this lady? I'd also remain frosty and businesslike with her too.

There's no way I'd be making anyone's life easier and sweeping it under the carpet - you did nothing wrong, your colleague needs to be disciplined as it's not the first time and your managers need a kick up the arse for taking the easy route, making you feel like YOU have to apologise and sweeping it under the carpet

To echo what others have said, I think you need to raise a grievance now.

If I found out a member of staff was behaving like that in front of kids at my children’s nursery, I would be livid and would be contemplating a complaint to Ofsted, even though I dislike Ofsted! I’d want the managing staff to be pushed into taking behaviour like that seriously! Not healthy for children to see, especially when for some nursery will be their safe space.

It's really no excuse is it? I left my job during the worst of my perimenopause as I couldn't cope with people and felt I would actually do something like this woman did. If she isn't able to control her behaviour she should not be in the workplace.

Or maybe she's just horrible 😕