To think that women still can’t have it all?

[Oldbalance]

Posting this off the back of recent decisions I had to made, that have got me thinking about the sacrifices women continue to make if the want DC.

DH and I are TTC our first DC, I am 35 and DH is 38 so already time is less on my side. I was recently offered a new role with a pay rise, but would need to work there for the qualifying period before being entitled to maternity pay, which was only enhanced for 6 weeks. In my current company full salary is paid for 5 months stepping down to half pay. Due to rising COL we would struggle to have a decent quality of life on one salary and that is despite having a small mortgage. In addition the private medical cover in my role covers fertility treatment if we need it, it wouldn’t in new role. Weighing these things up, I decided not to take it, even for the initial pay raise, with a view to looking again if we cannot conceive.

Whilst DH sympathises, I did have to highlight to him the difficulty women face due to these circumstances and when I spelled it all out to him I think he started to understand why it’s a crap deal for women. He is the higher earner to it doesn’t make sense for him to take paternity leave which would be unpaid, it has never even been a consideration that he wouldn’t take a job for more money because of these reasons.

When weighing up what to do, quite a few family members and friends were pretty resigned to the fact that women just can’t have it all and now I’m inclined to agree even though in the past I would have said it was rubbish. But is it unreasonable to say that when it comes down to it, because of biology women actually can’t have it all, or am I missing something here?

If you can afford to go down to half pay he can afford 2 weeks off.
Or, you know, save his annual leave.

You could have it all in terms of a baby and the better job, but the maternity pay differs from company to company.

Could you take the better job and shared leave?

Plus, @Nordicrain, you said it yourself. You "saved up" and took maternity leave, implying that your maternity leave was not fully paid.

If you can save up to be able to take maternity leave, the OP's husband could save up to be able to take paternity leave.

None literally ‘has it all’.

it’s easier for men to pursue their career and have a family but they then don’t get to spend as much time with their children.

’having it all’ for women used to men having a career (not just a job) and children. I have that.

so on that measure true more men have that. But women can too.

and I’d say I have more of it ‘all’ than my husband does. And many working women do.

we fall into the default that despite both working in demanding jobs, I prioritise and juggle for the kids more than he does.

it’s busy but I enjoy them and have a closer relationship with them than he does. My career is also going well. So I’d say I have more of it ‘all’.

true of lots of career men with families. Your husband CAN take paternity leave, it’s a choice. He might choose not to claiming ‘money’ but fear of how he’s perceived will also be a driver in him saying he ‘can’t’.

this will likely also flow into how much childcare he believes he ‘can’ do vs his job.

so watch that for your own happiness.

sometimes my husband complains the kids are closer to me, but it’s a consequence of his own choices.

mort family career men don’t have it all either, but the time / relationship with their kids that is lacking is under discussed.

I was naive on this. I'm self-employed. DH was made redundant at the end of the pandemic, and our skills complement each other quite well, so we decided he'd work with me. It worked well.

Until my pregnancy was visible, and suddenly, the work that had been easy and reliable wasn't really needed anymore... and a couple of projects were put on hold. I pressed a contact and they were worried they'd be left in the lurch if I gave birth.

Anyway. I've been back at work since DS was 8 weeks because I have skills and a reputation. Thankfully I can do 80% of my work from home, os it's often just a case of either finding somewhere quiet to work or just feeling like I'm awake parenting or working all the time, and being very close to burnout...

There are choices that would have made it easier. Not breastfeeding. Sleep training. Neither was for me, as a mother, they'd have been compromises too far. Sometimes I wonder if full-time work would have been easier because I'd have had a set salary and could have "coasted" a bit more, but I suppose that very much depends on the job! Ideally, DH would have gotten a job, even part-time, but he has a physical disfigurement and right now, doesn't have the confidence to take the constant rejection that comes along with it... so I feel a bit stuck.

We could have a few days nursery starting in a couple of months time but in reality, I'm not sure it'll make much difference. It'd give DH a few days off a week and so we probably should, but the money would be more useful.

Anyway - Having it all very much depends on what "it all" is, for you. Explore all the options and rule out what doesn't work for you, and then see what is left. If that is being able to prioritise your career, which is something that I wanted, than DH needs to be able to pick up some of the work with the baby - so there has to be a way that he can do some of the work in the early days. That will require him being able to take some leave - whether that's shared parental leave, or saving up, or whatever. If that doesn't happen, it's really unlikely it'll ever be a shared load. They don't get any easier, or cheaper. One of the things that I am PHENOMENALLY glad of is that DS is so bonded with DH, because DS has been here throughout, that I've never had to worry about if DH could cope. He does nappies/cuddles/bedtime etc just as well as me.

I won't lie, DS prefers cuddles with me, and DH often needs prompting to book activities, but they can and do often figure it out without me.

Noone can have it all.

But is it unreasonable to say that when it comes down to it, because of biology women actually can’t have it all, or am I missing something here

Yes, you are missing something here. Your DH is the higher earner, which is why you can't choose to return to work asap and let him be the SAHP? But what in your biology up to this point has made you earn less than him? You haven't taken maternity leaves or gone part time for childcare. So what was it?
Choices that had nothing to do with your biology?

100%.
and yes @Cloudburstings makes a good point. Men don't have it all either - they spend considerably less time with their families generally. This is not something I would choose personally. However, there is less societal pressure telling them they are bad dads for doing so.

If his salary and career is so impressive and important then he should easily stretch to a nanny to enable you to pursue your career also - if not then 50/50 parenting it is imo.

I hate this "women can't have it all" cliche with a passion. It makes me absolutely see red for three main reasons:

a) because people post and talk about it with this wide-eyed "lightbulb moment" tone as if no one had ever thought about it before. There's a post on here every week about this and it's not earth-shattering. It's a hoary old cliche.

b) far more importantly: because actually, whisper it, women can have it all and quite a lot of us do.

c) possibly most important of all, because no one ever tells men they "can't have it all".

What this phrase actually means if you unpack the politics behind it, is women telling other women they have to make a binary choice between having children or having a career and if they decide to do both, their children will suffer.

And I can tell you that's total, toxic bollocks.

I have both. Not because I chose it, it was forced on me. I'm a single mother so I have to work and I have a kid. I make it work because I have to. But actually I'm pretty bloody good at both and my kid is happy and well adjusted and I have a good, interesting and well-paid job.

I'm not saying this to be smug or arrogant. I'm saying it because I'm sick and tired of people telling me I'm damaging my child by working. People who think working women are hurting their kids or selling themselves short are part of the problem here. There are bloody good reasons why some of us "have it all". And the most important of those is that not being dependent on a man is literally worth its weight in gold. And if that means being a bit more tired or a bit more stretched, so be it.

Finally, and this is where it matters most: the reason most women struggle to deal with this isn't because women aren't capable of having or doing it all. It's because the men in their lives don't do enough.

So please let's change the record so instead of bleating on about "women can't have it all" we say "men don't do half of it and they should".

Women didn't 'try to have it all'. Women asked for equal treatment and we didn't get it.

Women thought that they would be treated fairly; that gaining legal equality in society and the workplace would translate to having actual equality, and it didn't. We still don't get the big jobs or pay.
We thought that society would change to accommodate us, and men would pull their weight. They don't. There are men that use their paternity leave to go do their hobby instead of parenting. We still do the housework after a shift. We are still the default parent.

The fact is that if you have children your career, your pension and your finances take a hit. And you'll be sneered at for 'trying to have it all'.

Men can however have it all - safe in the knowledge that society won’t judge them for spending little time thinking about or with, their children.

The first step to a more equal society? Stop judging women.

As Ali Wong said:
“Why does no one ask men how they balance careers and parenting?
Because they don’t.”

It gives me the rage too. It's a self fulfilling proficy. Women telling women they can't possibly have it all so why even bother trying.

“Women didn't 'try to have it all'. Women asked for equal treatment and we didn't get it. “

This.

I don’t want it all, I really don’t. I’m happy not having the newest car or biggest wardrobe
or fancy flashy things. I live in a decent 2 bed with 2 children and I’m single parenting
working full time. I could stretch myself to have more, I could find time for a relationship but I chose not to. Having it all to me is having an enjoyable (as it can be) life. Wonderful if life gives me more and I could suddenly have all those things that people perceive to having it all, but it’s not possible to have it all without the human nature to always want more. Changing the mindset of having it all as you are is the way.

Well, it depends what you mean by "have it all", doesn't it? Personally I don't think anyone can have a high-flying career, children and a solid amount of free time - something has to give - even if you're in a equal partnership,

I have zero desire to have children as, quite frankly, I can't be bothered with all the with and sacrifice that's involved. I love my job and I have an excellent work-life balance.

If I had children, DH and I would either have to sacrifice lots of our free income or massively increase our hours and can't frankly, neither of us want to do that.

Lots of people seem to think having children and a career means you've "made it" but frankly I can't think of anything worse 😂

Take the job, save some of the extra money to subsidise maternity leave. Don't base your career choices on what ifs. Also your dh taking paternity leave would be a good idea. You don't have to do everything.

That’s a weird thing to say. Ever considered SAHM’s want to be SAHM’s for their children, not to support their husbands career?

Oh sure. But two things:

1. it's odd why, comparitively so many more women just "want" to be SAHMs vs dads

2. Although we make choices based on our individual circumstances and not for the greater good (as we should), there is no denying that that choice perpetuates workplace gender inequality

far more importantly: because actually, whisper it, women can have it all and quite a lot of us do

Doesn't this rather depend on your definition of "having it all"? It's great if you feel that you do, but a lot of people would likely look at your set up and think that you are not at all "having it all".

For my personal definition, no-one can have it all. Neither men or women. But that isn't at all the point, what we need is to be able to make free choices and be treated equally.

I'm not sure what you're describing really demonstrates the issues of trying to having it all, you've made choices. You've chosen to delay having children, you chose not to take the job, you chose to stay in the role so you have access to fertility treatment etc, you haven't been forced into any of these things (except maybe the first). It is no doubt a challenge being a working mother no doubt, but I've made choices to enable me to have the balance I want so I tick all the boxes that are important to me. Yes I've had to make more challenging choices than my husband, but my quality of life is as good, if not better actually, than his.

Also the paternity leave is a choice, I'm not getting the impression it's an impossible choice.

Hopefully in good partnerships the sacrifice can be shared

This is key.

I know it can be challenging but I also think it's important not to view the highest paying job as the most important job. For many reasons, men tend to earn more than their female partners and if you prioritise that job every time then it's difficult for women to also progress their careers.

My DH earns more than me but he does his fair share of childcare and housework and sometimes he needs to rearrange work commitments or say no to opportunities because my job can't accommodate it.

Yes, but continually telling women specifically that they can't have it all is limiting. Especially as men never get told that.

I am pretty sure that part of why I followed the path I did is because I was always told by my parents that I could achieve anything and everything I wanted. I know of course that that isn't really true but that was the empowerment I grew up with. I am pretty sure if I had been brought up on "well there's just no way you will have a family and a career so you may as well get that ridiculous idea out of your silly little head, women can't have everything" my outlook would have been very different.

@Thepeopleversuswork 💯agree. Many women can and do ‘have it all’ if that’s being a good mother and having a good job career.

You have to figure out how, let go of all the people pleasing, toughen up on how others criticisms make you feel, be firm and consistentlu demanding that your parent steps up if you have one (and do this EARLY) much harder to change norms once they are set.

i actually think I’m a better mother for my job and better at work since becoming a mother. I get time to myself and perspective on my dynamics with my kids when at work. I get life perspective and the courage to cut through the corporate bullshit from the anchor of my family.

@Thelnebriati asking for equal treatment at work is only part of it. Women don’t have equal treatment at work in part because men don’t have equal treatment on parenting. I’m campaigning for sex blind parental leave in my (male dominated) work place because it would balance up both work and home life if male employees were also supported / incentivised to spend time with their young children.

men on average don’t ‘ have it all’ as they miss out on time with their kids. They / society may not perceive that as a loss, but I think it is. I wouldn’t swap my life patterns for my husbands or many career men that on paper have a good career and a family. I’m a better parent than all of them, I enjoy it and it’s important to me.

so I feel taken all together I have more of ‘it all’ than they do.

Neither men or women have it all. The norm in the UK is for the man to miss out more on good relationships and quality time with his children and the woman to miss out on a greater career. It doesn’t have to be that way around so the would be parents need to decide before TTC who is having what. I did that with my DH long before we had children so we’re both happy with our choices. He has made a big effort to still have a good relationship with the DC and I’ve made an effort to keep my hand in career wise with a view to doing more when the DC are older. I feel happy with my life and choices.