To think that women still can’t have it all?

[Oldbalance]

Posting this off the back of recent decisions I had to made, that have got me thinking about the sacrifices women continue to make if the want DC.

DH and I are TTC our first DC, I am 35 and DH is 38 so already time is less on my side. I was recently offered a new role with a pay rise, but would need to work there for the qualifying period before being entitled to maternity pay, which was only enhanced for 6 weeks. In my current company full salary is paid for 5 months stepping down to half pay. Due to rising COL we would struggle to have a decent quality of life on one salary and that is despite having a small mortgage. In addition the private medical cover in my role covers fertility treatment if we need it, it wouldn’t in new role. Weighing these things up, I decided not to take it, even for the initial pay raise, with a view to looking again if we cannot conceive.

Whilst DH sympathises, I did have to highlight to him the difficulty women face due to these circumstances and when I spelled it all out to him I think he started to understand why it’s a crap deal for women. He is the higher earner to it doesn’t make sense for him to take paternity leave which would be unpaid, it has never even been a consideration that he wouldn’t take a job for more money because of these reasons.

When weighing up what to do, quite a few family members and friends were pretty resigned to the fact that women just can’t have it all and now I’m inclined to agree even though in the past I would have said it was rubbish. But is it unreasonable to say that when it comes down to it, because of biology women actually can’t have it all, or am I missing something here?

Where was your dad?

Well, no. No one can have it all, unless you want to move to a country where both men and women can take long parental leaves on full salary. And then you will be paying for that through extremely high taxes. (And probably also by not seeing the sun for three months in midwinter.)

I didn't say her husband could have it all. I said he could take paternity leave if he actually wanted to.

Mine stayed at home for the first five years (a time I barely remember) and then worked part time for the rest of her career. She never managed to get back on track. Personally I think it would have been better for all of us if she'd bitten the bullet and gone back full time when she had the chance.

I should say my DH would like to take paternity leave if he could. But we couldn’t manage on just my salary and his leave isn’t paid. We don’t have tonnes of spare cash to save to make up the difference. That seems to be the reality for most people I know.

I actually hate the talk of women being martyrs when all they are doing is trying to find a balance between working and making sure their dc are brought up properly. Its not easy to find that balance. It’s so unhelpful to start throwing the word martyr about when people are just acknowledging that it’s difficult.

And there is actually the wider aspect of societal good to consider when it comes to raising children. Yes it’s a selfish personal choice to reproduce on the one hand, but also the world couldn’t function if women all of a sudden stopped having babies.

That’s nice, but she could take the job and save for maternity leave if she actually want to. We are both making the same point that nobody can have it all though…

I think you need to consider what having it all really means to you. Because some things won't happen. Like you can't be with your child 24/7 till they are 8 and at the same time be a high flying CEO. But the issue you are talking about is temporary. You can take that job and you and your husband can save to cover the shortfall in maternity pay. "having it all" does require sacrifices, choices and prioritising.

I feel I, more or less, have it pretty good. I am able to do school runs most days, attend most school events and host play dates, but I also have a relatively senior corporate job which means I have disposable income and am senior enough to be able to exercise flexibility. Could I have better career success? Yes. Could I be a even more present parent? Yes. But then I would likely have to choose one of the other. My current situation is a pretty good balance of both and I genuinely feel like I have both a good and meaningful career and can parent to an extent I feel happy with. There have been times that has not felt as well balanced, when the kids were smaller, periods of illness, times where my job was particular stressful or busy, or once when I had a worktrip that coincided with DD's birthday. But overall, I'd say I have it all.

You're not even pregnant yet though. Would it really not be possible to save enough over the course of the next 9+ months for your husband to take at least a month off?

Oh and I saved to make sure I could take a full year off, despite not having an amazing maternity package. As soon as I went back to work after DD I started saving for the next one despite planning a 3 year gap.

I think it depends upon your definition of having it all.

It also surprises me that your DH considers a job purely on the salary. Does he not look at the flexibility, benefits, pension, medical cover, working hours/location, expectations, reputation, commute etc as well? Or does he just mean that you don’t even have a child yet but already he’s making it clear that he won’t be picking up his share of parenting.

@YouAreNotBatman Not meaning to single you out but I must say really have had enough of the attitude that people who have children are selfish. I see it all the time on here and it just is so disrespectful, not just to parents necessarily - although it’s usually used to have a dig at parents asking for advice - but just to your fellow human beings and society generally. People make choices for all sorts of reasons, maybe selfish maybe not - but everyone was a child once, everyone had to be birthed and raised. Who made your iPhone? Who nurses you and cares for you when you are sick? Who built your place of education/church/library? Everyone has to be born, and I am grateful some people make the choice to have children so that other people exist and contribute to society and my quality of life. I won’t change your mind I’m sure, but I wish posters like you would try to see the good in other people rather than chucking out insults like selfish at a whole group of strangers. And no I don’t want any praise for becoming a parent, it’s just a fact. Nor would I dream of saying people who choose not to have children are selfish, I don’t believe they are and nor would it be in any way my place to make that judgement and pronounce it. It’s just a horrid way to get at someone.

Women have been sold a lie about having it all. In my mind that means an amazing career and the time to be a hands on Mum too.

My SIL has an amazing career she is very very well paid. My DB has done most of the daily drop offs and pick ups normal childcare stuff. It works great for them as he’s not as career focused as she is. Would I say she has it all, no because I think maybe she missed out on their children. But they are brilliant children who have not obviously suffered for it. They’re an amazing family unit.

My family set up is the opposite, I was a SAHM for 7 years and loved it. My husband has had to make sacrifices in terms of career path as he’s the main bread winner. He can’t take a pay cut in order to move sideways and then up as we couldn’t afford it.

Parents in general can’t have it all male or female, we all have to make sacrifices. The same in same sex relationships there has to be some give and take.

Would it really not be possible to save enough over the course of the next 9+ months for your husband to take at least a month off?

Exactly.

I mean, you'll be budgeting for childcare when you return to work anyway so there must be some additional money you can save?

What's your dh maternity/paternity policy like, could you share the mat leave or even your dh do more if his is better. It doesn't all have to be on you op. I split my mat leave 50/50 with my dh.

YABU, OP. Men have given us lots of nice things that mean we can now have do it all. For example, hormonal contraceptives, washing machines and vacuum cleaners.

Imagine what your life would be like without a washing machine. Have you ever stopped to think about that? Or are you too busy voting and wearing trousers? I thought so.

🙄

What do tired cliches dressed up as humour add to this conversation?

It's such load of rubbish, ignore it. You only have to look at societies with falling birthrates, they are begging their citizens to have more sex and children. Literally public campaigns telling people to procreate. Yes, for most people the decision to have kids is an individual and selfish choice, but there is no mistaking that procreation is essential for society and people who have children are carrying out a public service. Why else would public policy support it.

You're over thinking OP.
Get pregnant and trust that you'll find a solution :)

Yes, she could.

But with women, when it comes to changing jobs, it's a total gamble as to whether you would be financially better off sticking with your current job and getting an enhanced maternity package, or getting a new job with higher pay but no enhanced maternity package.

If the new job is significantly better paid, then usually it will be better to take the higher salary and forego the maternity pay, especially if she doesn't get pregnant straight away.

Then again, when taking a new job there's always the risk of getting pregnant too quickly and the employer finding an excuse to ditch you during your probation period or before you really qualify for any employment protection.

Men don't have a lot of these concerns. Even a man who takes three months' paternity leave (of which some will probably just be paid holiday) isn't considered a risk or a burden to his employer. All he's got to do is put some money aside if his paternity leave is unpaid. And yet even that is too much to ask of most men, apparently.

My husband and I will try to conceive later this year. I made it clear 4 years ago (pre-marriage) that if we had kids we would both take parental leave and he’d take around 6 months off, so he’d better plan his career accordingly. We have also planned our mortgage based on reduced salaries and childcare costs. If he had a problem with any of this I wouldn’t have children with him.

There are huge, structural barriers women face for equality and some of them can only be overcome through full scale societal transformation. But when I see women not doing the things that are within their power I do lose sympathy. Don’t be the turkey that votes for Christmas, ffs.

I didn't consider the burden on my employer. I saved up money and took the maternity leave I am legally and contractually entitled to.

“Dressed up as humour” 😂

This person doesn’t understand jokes.

Btw, I am not saying that the system is stacked against women. It absolutely is. But the only way it's going to change is by women demanding to have both a career and a family life. Demanding that men step up. Demanding that employers drop sexisism and presenteeism. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but while women are throwing in the towel and become default parent and SAHMs in droves to support their husband's careers they are just perpetuating the issue.

It depends what you mean by 'have it all'. Can life continue as is after having a child? No of course not, but surely that's the major consideration when deciding whether to have a child and not negative.

If you mean can a woman have a decent career when they're a mother then yes they can, but having a supportive partner who pulls their weight and also parents their child and does their share of housework etc makes the difference. You've already boxed yourself into taking a career hit by seeing him as the higher earner and therfore not being able to do x, y or z. I wouldn't have a child with someone who thought this way, sure you have to be practical about finances, but if you're going to be taking leave when child is unwell, changing your hours and even job to adapt then yes it'll be crap.

By that I meant that a man's job is not at risk if his employer finds out that his wife is pregnant, whereas a woman losing her job or not being offered a job or a promotion because she is pregnant is still unfortunately a thing that happens because employers see this as a burden.

Of course, the more men take paternity leave, and the more employers are pressured, or better still, forced, to offer paid paternity leave, the less employers will see this as a burden associated uniquely with employing female staff.