Mrs, Ms or Miss: why do forms require women reveal their marital status and not men?

[Ludlow2]

That's it really.

Why do women have to reveal this and not men?
Isn't it time we changed this.

Interesting to read that female school teachers in the US are known as Ms. The highly regarded local girls' school where I worked was aghast when I suggested similar. They are all Miss birthname until they marry then became Mrs husband's name even though it seems at odds with parts of the school's mission statement.

As I said in my earlier post, @Nordicrain, I am of a generation where it was the norm to change your name and take the title Mrs when you married, and I have been married over 30 years now, so this is part of who I am. I was also very keen to leave my maiden name behind, as it had been used to bully me throughout secondary school, so it has very painful associations for me.

Dh wears a wedding ring, because he is happy to advertise his marital status to people he meets, and if there was a change of title for men that mirrored the Miss to Mrs change, I think he would have chosen it.

But I’m not up in arms that he doesn’t have that choice, partly because he isn’t bothered, and partly because I can sympathise with the OP’s views, and if we want to move towards a single title (if a title is needed) for women, then surely it would be counterproductive to add in extra titles for men.

I honestly believe that the balance is shifting, and in time, the Miss/Mrs titles will fall entirely out of favour, and no-one will bat an eyelid at a single title for women that does not advertise their marital status. But I think it is better for the change to be organic, not forced.

I do think a good start would be taking all titles off forms - that would not bother me at all.

Or...people assume you have made because over 90% of women make that choice?

This is a classic case of feminism talking down to women and telling them they're womaning wrong, because of course it's not possible for any woman to make that choice without having been victims of social conditioning.

FFS. The level of ego involved in that perspective is stunning.

One thing I will say - snarky comments about “certain sorts of women” wanting to be known as Mrs, or that I’m some sort of Jane Austen character for being MrsDHname, are not going to make me feel more likely to change my views.

Agree with this:

I do think a good start would be taking alltitles off forms - that would not bother me at all.

That would absolutely be the best outcome.

What difference does it make?

Yikes.

What's "yikes" about it? 90% of women (quoted from the previous post) choosing a title, and being told in this thread that they're wrong for doing so, and it's because they can't have made that choice by their own agency but rather because they were conditioned to do so by men.

Those are all things from this very thread, I'm not making anything up here, just putting them together.

Not exactly empowering to tell other women they're not capable of making their own choices, is it? How, exactly, have I missed the point? Apart from the possibility that you don't speak for all women, of course, a large number of whom might not agree with you (in case you missed it, that's the "ego" part - you explicitly said that the only possible reason is "patriarchy", conveniently missing the "you don't speak for all women" part).

It’s worse- if you don’t make that choice people insist anyway, or seem offended that you haven’t.

I got married 20 years ago. I have never changed my name or title, I was Dr my name before marriage, and remain so. It has always been very clear to everyone.

I still get cards and post of friends and family addressed to Mr & Mrs dhname. I even get birthday cards addressed to Mrs dhname.

if I raise it it’s me being difficult. The attitude seems to be women insisting on using academic titles are uppity knowalls, I should be proud of mrs like they are, as if marriage trumps academics in their eyes.

i don’t generally use my title, but if it’s a required field or someone wants to address me by title, use the correct one!

I mean, you accused me of "ego" whilst apparently justifying the fact that people call me by a title I don't use and a name that is not mine on the grounds that over 90% of other women make this "choice".

Your post has a strong whiff of "this wouldn't be an issue if you would just be a good girl and make the same CHOICE everyone else makes" about it.

And no, as others have pointed out, this so-called choice is not made in a vacuum. Women do it because it's expected, and because our patriarchal society still gives women greater social status once they've managed to bag a husband.

If it were a genuine choice which just happened to be something people (as opposed to women) really, really want to do, because they really really want the world to know how married they are, men would want to do it too.

But they don't.

You do you, of course. But this is not feminism.

Feminism isn't about choice (except when it comes to abortion rights). It's about being men's equals. These patriarchal naming traditions mark us out as men's inferiors.

"Feminism isn't about choice"

Well, on that we apparently agree. It's about being good little girls and doing what the feminists say. I remember the days when it was about equality of opportunity...ie "choice".

Exactly.

Women! Don't be controlled and told what to do by men!
Be controlled and told what to do by other women!

Over 90% of women still change their name upon marriage in the UK? I really would have expected it to be less by now.
Interestingly less than half change their name in my country that doesn't use titles like miss and mrs, perhaps there's a connection.

When a much older neighbour learned I was separating, she came by especially
to tell me I shouldn’t, as “you will have no status if you leave”

The irony...

(Coming from a woman who appears to be judging me and other feminist troublemakers for not making the standard antifeminist choice like all the good little girls.)

Perhaps feminism is about choice after all.

It's about whether you choose to fight the patriarchy or not.

The reason this thread (and indeed real life) has descended into a quagmire over this issue, is because fundamentally it's an asymmetric one. No amount of contortions over Ms/Miss/Mrs/whatever will change the fact that the reflection by sex is simply "mr".

This position was once explained to me as trying to play football on a sloping pitch. No matter how well you play, the downward slope is always easier.

(Incidentally this was the same situation with Brexit, where there was no symmetry in the outcomes. "Remain" was not "Not leave". Or vice versa. That's why a vote to leave needed to be much more powerful than a single vote majority).

The only way to solve it is - as suggested by a few here - to abolish all titles. And stick with it. However what do you then do if someone wants to use Mrs. Or Miss. Or Ms ? Or Mr, even ?

Personally I would be much more offended at being paid 30% less than a man than I would over a title. But then that's me, I guess.

I'm not judging you for your choice - that's entirely yours, and yours alone.

I'm judging you for the fact that you want to make that choice on behalf of other women by removing the options you don't like. How is "I'm making this choice for you, because I know what's best for you better than you do" different from the patriarchy you purport to oppose?

These things are all connected though.

Do you know why children traditionally call all female teachers "Miss" at school regardless of whether they are married or not?

It's because a couple of generations ago, the day you became Mrs was the day you were expected to stop working.

Male teachers, on the other hand, aren't even "Mr". For some inexplicable reason, they get elevated to the dizzying heights of "Sir".

No, you've invented that or mixed me up with someone else.

There is an option that allows you to not ‘reveal’ your marriage status.
Simply use Ms if you prefer.
it’s rare to not see it as an option ime.

Many years ago older women often used Mrs despite not being married. Maybe we should just revert to this - Mrs for all women, Miss for girls. Like you have Mr for men and Master for boys.

I choose to use Mrs. I am married and it would feel strange to me now to decide to change it after 25 years.

But you are judging me for my choice. It's implicit in the way you seek to brush over other people ignoring my choice on the grounds that it's not the correct choice that over 90% of all other women make.

I haven't said anywhere in this thread that the choice to define yourself as "woman who has managed to bag a husband" should be taken away from you.

But it is a problematic choice to make, it's unhelpful to women in general, and I see absolutely no issue with teaching the next generation that this is an old fashioned patriarchal tradition that they don't actually have to follow.

If that means the choice you made eventually marks you out as being a dinosaur, that's too bad. You'll have to put up with that, just like those who have adopted "Ms" have had to put up with being perceived as troublemakers.

The ultimate goal, however, should be for there to be just one title for all women, so that your title doesn't mark you out as anything other than being a woman, making it harder for strangers to make value judgements about us.

No I haven't. You saying my choice 'impacts' you means I can't choose what I want to be called.

No it doesn't.

People choose to do things that have a negative impact on others all the time.