Mrs, Ms or Miss: why do forms require women reveal their marital status and not men?

[Ludlow2]

That's it really.

Why do women have to reveal this and not men?
Isn't it time we changed this.

The French did this years ago.

Madame for women, mademoiselle for girls.

Now they seem to be going one step further and phasing out mademoiselle too. My three month old daughter receives post addressed to "madame".

Completely incorrect. Your choice is exactly yours, and you're free to do whatever you want with it - far from brushing over it, I've even suggested it further up this thread.

What you're saying is implicit in my posts is actually pure fiction, because it's just not there. I'm autistic, as I've said before; I don't do subtext or implication, if it's not in my words then it's not intended as meaning.

You, however, are judging other women's choice as "problematic", and saying right here that women shouldn't have any choice at all - that is your stated "ultimate goal", to remove choice. How is that anything but "should be taken away from you"? I'm talking about women both now and in the future.

As I said...the only logical conclusion is that you know best, and all should be good little girls and go with it.

Yes it does.

You want us to not point out sexism because feminism now means sexist things are OK provided women have chosen them?

The correct response to someone saying that members of the general public frequently ignore the fact that a woman uses the title "Ms" or has not changed her name on marriage is to say that this is bad, not to say, "Oh they probably do it because 90% of women do change their name on marriage like good little girls."

Dh’s bank account letters refer to him as name, Esq.
He did it ‘as a joke’ when a student, along with some of his friends 🙄 - it’s been nearly 40 years since and he’s still not got round to changing it.

No it doesn't. That's a completely nonsensical invention on your part. People not mentioning the indisputable fact that title usage is impacts and is impacted on by others isn't a requirement for you to be able to use the one you like.

No, I want you to stop making choices on behalf of other women based on the fact that you think you're more informed, and actually act as though those women have their own agency and reasons that might not conform to the prejudices inherent in your own ideology.

Are you hard of thinking?

Nobody except the patriarchy is making your choices for you.

It's just that the choice you made (which, by the way, was not in fact a choice for any woman before about the 1970s, but something imposed on her by society) isn't a feminist choice. It doesn't help advance equality for women.

Having these different titles which allow strangers to make value judgements about us based on whether we appear to be married or not is harmful, not beneficial, to women. It's why men don't want to do the same.

The way to get rid of Mrs and Miss isn't to ban people like you from using them. As many people on this thread have said, it has to happen organically.

That means that the next generation of young women, who have never been married, should be encouraged to think long and hard about the choice they are making. And first and foremost, they need to understand that it IS a choice, and that they don't have to adopt their husband's name anymore, and they don't have to use a title which indicates their marital status. This conversation needs to involve discussion about the reasons why women have traditionally changed their names to their husbands' names and adopted a new title on marriage, and why men have not traditionally done any of these things.

If that conversation takes place at a societal level, I do believe that the next generation of young women will make a more feminist choice and we will have taken a step forward in the fight for equality between men and women.

But the "proud to be a Mrs" brigade value conformity, they value the social status they think being married gives them, and they don't want to be recast as people from a bygone age still clinging to outdated and sexist traditions.

That's why people like you get so offended by these conversations and try to claim (erroneously) that the nasty feminists are trying to take your choices away. We're not. We just aren't going to validate them, or stop pointing out that not all choices are feminist choices.

For me I just don’t like the fact that female honorifics are based on whether you are married or not and if you don’t want to say you can use Ms, and a man’s honorific (Mr) says absolutely nothing.

Well said @RosaBonheur.All of it.

I think the Germans may have done this too with Frau and Frauleine (sp?). I like the way the honorific changes as you become a woman rather than a girl as in the French Madame as I think calling middle aged woman Miss sounds ridiculous. The English language doesn’t seem to cater for a similar Madame or Frau.

I've never noticed any awkwardness about using Ms, and I think it's only in Britain that Ms is misinterpreted to mean divorced or widowed.

I've always been Ms - I was born in the 60s, in Ireland, and I don't know any female peers who don't use Ms (or Dr).

The fact that you don't know anyone who doesn't use 'Ms' is probably the reason you have no negative connotations with it. If everyone's using it then of course it's standard.

If we didn't have Miss/ Mrs in England either it would be a lot more straightforward.

You think that women who continue to use the name they have used throughout their entire lives and don't see any reason to change it are 'ridiculous'? Well, aren't you a treat.

I d

I don’t understand what you mean? I’m saying our English language doesn’t seem to cater for a word that encompasses being a woman without having to declare either your marital status or your views on it (using Ms to stay neutral). The French have Madame which covers all adult women, the Germans have Frau to do the same. My own personal opinion is that Miss on an adult woman doesn’t sit as well as the more respectful sounding Madame.

Also, it’s not a name it’s an honorific.

I don’t get how this is an issue when the answer to your question is in your question. Perhaps another question is why don’t men have the option to reveal their martial status? (Cue the “so they can pretend to be single and manipulate us all” answers)

I didn't change my name when I married in 1992. Partly it was because it was my name and partly it was because I couldn't be bothered with the admin. There was feminist intent in there, but I'd be lying if I didn't say the desire to avoid admin was a big motivation.

I am Miss MySurname and my husband is Mr HisSurname. He not only never raised an objection, I don't remember ever having a conversation about it. I suppose it must have come up but I don't remember it.

I flirted with Ms in my teens and early 20s but then I met my friend's mum who was a surgeon and was Miss EyeSurgeonDifferentNameToJoanna'sDad. I thought if it was good enough for her, it was good enough for me.

Everyone who meets us assumes we have the same surname and nearly everyone assumes that it is his, because that is the convention. Neither of us feel much need to correct people. If someone is kind enough to send us a Christmas card I feel it would be churlish to quibble over the way the envelope is addressed. But if anyone else feels differently then I wouldn't stand in their way of making the point.

But the thing about having different names when you're married is that though most people assume you have the same surname, and it's the man's one, they don't have the same one in their heads. It depends who they meet first. So when people who know me first, say from work, meet him they think he's called MrMySurname.

It's only come up a few times because how many times do you use someone's surname in a social situation? But I know that's what most people think. The only time he's ever corrected someone is if they were doing something like booking tickets in the wrong name. Other times it's not necessary. I'm sure it happens to other married couples with different names and again, if anyone did feel it was important they should go ahead and set things straight rather than think they have to do what I do.

There are times when it really matters so our solicitor, the bank that held our mortgage and people like have been told.

I can only remember two people raising an objection in all that time. One was a nutty woman who enmeshed us in a civil case who declared in court that I was perjuring myself - everyone politely smiled. The other one was a gay man who told me it was illegal not to change my name on marriage. I thought it was a joke but soon realised he was serious. That was way before gay marriage was possible. I know he since married and sometimes wonder what name he and his husband go by. But we've lost touch and I can't be arsed to ask him.

Most women do change their names on marriage and I can't do anything about people making what is a reasonable and harmless assumption that I have also done it. As I said, I only correct them when I need to.

I certainly don't feel those women's decision pressures me. If it did, I would have done it too, wouldn't I?

So I don't know what to say to women who say they do feel pressured by the convention and that women owe it to them and to future generations of girls to not do it. It would probably be like my mum said: "If all your friends stuck their heads in a gas oven, would you do it?"

One was a nutty woman who enmeshed us in a civil case who declared in court that I was perjuring myself - everyone politely smiled.

What???!!!

She knew we had different surnames so assumed we were not married. That's a reasonable mistake to make. But then she said in court that our joint statement should be struck out and that I'd misrepresented and perjured myself. Not my husband, mind you, just me!

It was a stressful time but that was a bit of light relief. It worked out all right in the end. Judges must get together at the end of the day in their dressing up room and say: "You'll never guess what someone said today."

Bizarre!

Agree with the OP, it's ridiculous, sexist and outdated. The only available title should be Ms. Or make everybody the same, regardless of gender.

Or just do away with titles, why do we need them, anyway? I've noticed there slowly disappearing, most places just put the person's name without title, it's only my doctor's that still seems to use them these days. Even my latest cards don't have titles on them, the default option is first initial or name and last name! Just get rid, problem solved.

What is?

Really 🙄