Mrs, Ms or Miss: why do forms require women reveal their marital status and not men?

[Ludlow2]

That's it really.

Why do women have to reveal this and not men?
Isn't it time we changed this.

Is it okay with you if I agree with you again?

Not everything has to be a danger to life to not be ok. As long as society accepts a women is, literally, identified by her relation to a man gender equality isn't on the cards.

Except that the determination of whether the existence of the choice is acceptable or not is an ideological one, so - by removing it - you'd be taking choice away from women who actually want it.

You may not think it's OK, but there are many women who do...and by taking that choice away from them, you're removing their agency. Which, as far as I'm aware, is supposed to be the opposite of feminism.

I always assumed it was more about addressing things correctly.

I'm not in the feminism is about giving women choices camp, because that's not accurate, but trying to ban a title is a stupid idea. It would be unworkable and if anything might serve to glamourise it.

If you leave the choice not to put anything I am not opposed as such. But I do think women continuing the practice are in their choice supporting the patriachy. Which is anti-feminist.

The choice is there to use a non-marital signifier if you want, though. How is that supporting the "patriarchy"?

I think the only "title" with any value is "Dr"

@taxguru Really? I always fancied Your Majesty but I never stood a chance. I can't even blame the patriarchy for that because they've let women do it for years.

Because you are buying into a practice that defines you by your relationship to a man.

Of course sometimes (often) you don't have a choice.

I'm mrs and don't give a damn who knows it or what they think about it. I have full respect to others to have choices though.

Hell of a stretch that, given that "Ms" and "Mx" have absolutely no implication to marital status whatsoever.

And, of course, "Mrs" also applies to women who're married to women (I know quite a few same-sex couples who both use "Mrs").

Not exactly patriarchal, that.

It needs to start with the marriage where you are Mr Smith and Ms/Miss Jones before the service and still the same afterwards. If a name/title change is desired then that's a separate issue that can be applied for at a later date. Then it might make women pause for a second and reconsider. Although probably not! So many women want a 'family name', they hated their father, they have an awful birth name etc so it might not be as simple as I think it is. Hmm... but why wait until you are married to get rid of a name? Never understood that one.

And then children should not have a title before 18 then automatically be Mr and Ms until they decide to use another title if they are not happy with that.

Also feminism was not about choice particularly it was about equality, equal opportunities. If having a choice of titles was something to be treasured I'm sure men would have latched onto it before now.

Titles are silly, and sexist. I'm glad I moved to a country where non-academic or professional titles died out ages ago. I just put my name on forms, nothing to indicate my marital status.

They were talking rubbish...

Ms is for any woman

Yeah, it isn't patriarchal if you're subverting whatever would be the traditional title expectation for someone in your position.

Interestingly, many other languages have already done away with the different honorifics for women, or they're currently on their way out: https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/honorifics-in-other-languages

Unless you’re in a hospital or other professional setting whether it’s a PhD or MBChB doesn’t really matter.

if a woman fills out a form to buy a car and has Dr as her title, ambiguity is irrelevant as she isn’t giving you medical advice or lecturing you on 18th century politics.

As for it being the “only” title with value- Professor? Reverend? Captain? There are others that reflect achievements as well as the ones that indicate social status.

So long as you have a choice of what to use, I don't see the problem. I think it's incredibly rude to address people by the wrong title or by their first name if you don't know them. I feel very strongly about being addressed as Mrs (and felt the same when I was still a Miss), and I always correct people if they refer to me as Ms.

I've never heard a woman who uses Ms or Mx to avoid declaring her marital status say that they would rather provide that title than not having to indicate a title at all.

But we don't have the choice to use no title at all? That's the main issue.

I would MUCH rather be referred to by my first name than Mrs [Mr NordicRain]. And would correct anyone who did.

It's certainly not the issue referred to in the OP...?

It's exactly the issue.

We don't have a choice to not declare our marital status because all of them say something about our marital status. Including that we don't want to disclose it. Men do not have that issue.

It's just "expected" that a wife changes her name to that of her husband, maybe there's still peer pressure from family or hubby to do it and the wife simply doesn't want to say no and doesn't want to cause a rift with the in-laws!

My in-laws don't have free license to dictate to me what my own name is or refuse to address me by it, but unfortunately this is precisely what's happened.

MiL has been asked to stop this numerous times by DH. She hasn't. On one occasion she did address something to me by my correct name but made a point of misspelling it (at that time she was on my Facebook so she could clearly see both my name and its spelling). The next time she reverted to Mrs Hisname.

This has led DH to conclude that either she's not very bright or she's trying to make a cheap point. Refusal to acknowledge someone's own name is about as disrespectful and rude as it gets. She's divorced from FiL but I have resisted the temptation to address her by his (and DH's) name - even though she has more of a claim to it than I ever have. She's used it - I haven't.

We married in 2008. It's been a constant well of surprises to have received so much rudeness and pushback (often in casual transactions) for something I'd expected would be pretty commonplace by that time. This was usually in situations where my marital status was listed as married but I didn't use the title 'Mrs'.

I made the mistake of assuming that by the 21st century no one would give a stuff what women call themselves. The passive aggressive or outright rude conservatism I've experienced has been quite the eye-opener. In some ways, I believe attitudes to women have regressed rather than progressed in the last 20 years.

I was advised by my solicitor that the correct form for a divorced lady was Ms. I didn’t keep my married name but adopted my Grandmother’s similar sounding name and Ms.
My brother was Master Smith until he was 21 and officially Mr.
Who remembers letters addressed to John Smith Esq. ?
Years ago I recall my mother receiving cards, letters, addressed to Mrs John Smith
which she always found irksome.