Mrs, Ms or Miss: why do forms require women reveal their marital status and not men?

[Ludlow2]

That's it really.

Why do women have to reveal this and not men?
Isn't it time we changed this.

For a while, people seemed to think that my being single was an issue. As I get older, more women seem to think it's something to be envious of.

I can imagine the first ones thinking that Mrs is somehow superior!

@Oldnproud

Don't the lists sometimes include a 'none' option?

Well yes, but then the recipient would probably get uppity about being addressed as Mandy Smith rather than Ms/Mrs/Miss Smith.

You really can't win! Some people are going to be offended or feel patronised however you address them!

We just removed salutation from our databases. Yes, a tiny number of people had a minor whinge, but no clients left us and none mention it anymore.

"gentlemen and players"

"I think this is an issue far beyond titles."

Yep!

The Mandy Smith is familiar, and the Dear Mandy is very familiar. it's worse in telephone calls/call centres. The poor staff are told to Create A Rapport with the client. Next thing it will be "ello Mate". Too chummy by half.

When I was teaching what really offended me was men getting addressed as Sir and women as Miss. Most being married. That's patriarchy. Some schools actually taught that Miss was the correct polite terminology. Not our grammar school which used ma'am.
I hated the sound of Miss, particularly repeated. Same sound as cis. Gollum speak.

I prefer to think that Mandy Smith / Dear Mandy are becoming increasingly neutral. Even my 90 year old mum, who still values her title as 'Mrs', no longer comments when she gets mail containing those terms or when she is called into the doctor's office as Mandy Smith rather than Mrs Smith.

Not this again 🙄

I mainly use 'Ms'. But many women are happy to use Mrs and they should be allowed to continue to do so

I agree, things have changed and being addressed by {first name}{last name} is now the norm in most scenarios. Not a bad thing really. Saves a lot of unnecessary angst. I think a few people got their noses pushed out of joint when it started happening a decade or two ago, but now it's pretty normal. Only a few places left where salutations are still in common/daily use and hopefully they'll join the modern world soon.

I don't see why titles - other than professional titles - are necessary in any event, particularly as first-name terms are now a cultural norm. They are obsolete.

Good idea. Msr for married men and stick to Mr for single.

Yes, nothing shows up the difference in status more starkly than the Sir/Miss divide. It's deeply problematic when it comes to the perception of teachers: in universities female lecturers are frequently rated lower in module evaluation questionnaires than men. Inequalities of address like this really do not help.

The equivalent would be Ma'am, which is the standard term used in schools across the US.

Yes I’ve spotted this! I’ve started using Ms now. I’m sure it will go that way. To be honest, I’m not sure there is any need for titles at all now really.

It would be interesting to know how many happily married women still prefer Ms for feminist reasons.

I'm one.

I was one.
Irritatingly, now I am divorced and still using Ms, people seem to think I want to declare my divorced status
I was always Ms, never Miss or Mrs

Yep. When I book something in my name it's automatically assumed my DH (with a different surname) is the 'Dr'. He doesn't have a doctorate. I do. And this is what happens very much by default.

Reminds me of that old riddle where dad dies in an accident, son is critically injured, and the surgeon says: 'I can't operate on this boy, he's my son'. So many people can't figure out that the surgeon is his mother.

Patriarchy in action.

Here's the thing - enough women use "Mrs" when they're not married (eg my mother, post-divorce), and enough use "Ms" when they are, that it's no longer a reliable indicator.

Logic would dictate that if it's no longer a reliable indicator, then it doesn't actually reveal anything about the person's status. Even if an individual is using the title to indicate their marital status, there's no way to differentiate them from someone who just likes the sound of the word.

Hence, on forms where it actually matters, the "Marital status" question applies to both men and women.

I've been working in IT for 25 years, and I've never encountered a system that derives marital status from the salutation. These days, the question is there purely to avoid causing offence based on the individual's preferences.

I use Ms all the time, but I can't count the number of times people have said oh you're divorced then, are you? It's used a lot more in the United States.

Some women like being called Mrs or Miss. If you don't, just use Ms like lots of women do. The alternative would be you telling other women what you think they should do. How is that good?

I was a Ms in my late teens and early 20s but decided I preferred Miss. No reason; I just did.

Now I'm married it's still Miss BirthSurname. I do not have my husband's name even as an alternative, though many married women do. It's my personal preference and as I am not attempting to defraud anyone it's no one else's business.

I've been Ms since I was a teenager. Not had any flack (to my face) about it apart from one random male shop worker who took umbrage when filling out my loyalty card details, telling me in front of everyone "you're only supposed to use Ms if you're divorced"!!

I don't know why he assumed I'd never been divorced as I was in my late 20s then, but I corrected him a bit angrily and then got way angrier afterwards thinking about it. What an unnecessary prick.

If everyone used Ms, then Ms would have all the qualities you want.

Just use "Ms", everyone! We had this argument in the 60s and the 80s! Just use "Ms"!

No, I'm going to use Miss as I have always done. You don't get to tell me what to call myself, because that is up to me and none of your business.

Well, it's also the same sound as kiss, which is a nice thing!

Interestingly, when I worked for the nhs (also as a post doc scientist) it was always assumed I was a nurse.

it is really so deeply ingrained that female health worker = nurse.

I am always interested as to why women use Mrs as all. It appears to be because they want people to know they’re married, but why? Because snagging a man confers status? Married is “better” than unmarried? And why do men not feel the same pride or whatever I’m letting people know they’re married?

For all the women who argue that they have a right to their choice here to use Mrs. - why do
you think there needs to be a choice, men and boys are called Mr. throughout their lives, irrespective of she or marital status; Why can’t women and girls be called Ms. throughout their lives?

It is patriarchal to use Miss and Mrs to assign women into boxes based on their age and marital status - this sorting of men never happens, because a man always has a value, as a man - but a woman’s value is determined by her youthfulness or marital status - in essence, in accordance to her value to men.