DH wanting to move abroad

[purplejeanie]

DH is from another country. He left that country when he was 18, moved to the states for a decade and then moved to another country where we met and he then moved to England to be with me. He's been in uk more than a decade and we have 4 children, the oldest has just started secondary school. He has a very black and white personality and is either v happy or v down. Throughout his time in the uk he intermittently has said he wants to move. As a result we've moved location 3x (including to his home country for a year-the other places were in the uk), but he's never been consistently happy anywhere. We've been in our present place since the summer and children are happy in schools and settled. He now wants to move again (to a random sunny country where we have no roots and don't speak the language). He is trying to convince the children we'd be happier there. He's managing to persuade them but they're obviously conflicted and tell me how worried they are. Moving would mean I'd lose my job and be in a country far from my home, it would be a huge and another difficult adjustment for the children. He says he can't deal with being here-he hates the rat race and the weather. Aibu to just say no? I don't know how to find a compromise in this situation. I hate that the kids are being pulled in different directions.

Nothing is going to change with this move. He will get bored again and you'll be in the same situation but completely at his mercy with regards to the DC and returning to the UK if you decide that's what you want. Read any expat Facebook group and you'll quickly find someone stuck in a relationship or country they don't want to be in because leaving with the children to return home would be seen as kidnapping. Stay where you are, it doesn't sound like a particularly healthy relationship and you are in the best place if you decide it's no longer the relationship for you & the DC.

Can you suggest to him that he starts working away - Middle East maybe- so he gets that fulfilment and you still get the £££

DH now saying he will definitely go, with or without me-and in interim will persuade children to go with him. He will persuade them that I want a boring life, monotonous life and he wants an amazing family life on the beach abroad. I think that he will be able to persuade them of this-because obviously it sounds like paradise to young children. Can anyone assure me that the courts will just dismiss any application he makes to take them abroad-will a court care what the children say? And secondly, has anyone got wise words of what I can say to the children? I don't want to damage them further by talking against him, but at the same time probably shouldn't keep quiet. Thank you

oh dear. I honestly think he’s mentally unwell. He might well just be bluffing though. Hide their passports now and ask the passport office if they can put a stop to him applying for replacements (not sure this is possible).

you probably need a solicitor unfortunately but I would have thought almost any court would see right through his plan and award you custody if it came to it.

ps tell the children do they really want to go to a foreign country with no friends, where they can’t speak the language. emphasise all the extra curricular they won’t be able to do.

Get a legal help advice asap.

He doesn't sound well.

Say no. He won't he happy anywhere. He will take his problems with him. Obviously he is someone who isn't satisfied with life but instead of trying to change things to make it work he blames the location.

You have to think about stability for your children. The sort of move he proposes even if it is possible financially sounds disastrous, what about the children's schools? They would need to learn another language. What about health care? How would you support yourselves?
Ok to move like that if you are single and have no responsibility but it sounds as though he has never grown up

Hide their passports for sure. How do you feel about him? How much does he do for the dc? If you asked him to move out what would happen? One possibility is he finds hosting his children solo 3 days a week far too hard, so realises he isn’t moving them overseas on his own.

I love him but finding this madness harder and harder to bear. I think life would be more straightforward and more stable without him but financially would be very tough-and he does have a strong bond with the children.

How old are your children?
You need to talk to them about the reality of living in a country where they can't speak the language, how they will be away from all their friends and activities, TV shows they like and everything they enjoy. Are they members of any clubs etc ask them to imagine never going to them again. Tell them living in a foreign place is not the same as being on holiday. They would have to go to school and would find it hard to make friends when they can't speak the language.
Show them some words in Greek, and play them some films of people speaking Greek. look up information about the Greek education system and show them. Ask them how they will cope if they are ill and cant explain to the doctor what is wrong.
You shouldn't scare them buy they need to understand the reality opposed to the fantasy from their father.
On a practical level he won't be able to take them out of the country without your consent if you are worried he may try that get some legal advice asap.
But also would be even get a work permit, or residence permit to live in Greece?
He sounds as though he is also living in a fantasy world and needs a reality check.

If your oldest has just started secondary school, then your kids are around 13 and younger? I think you should seriously consider seeing a solicitor if he's really determined to go. I can't imagine a judge agreeing that they can be permanently moved out of the country, out of their schools, and most importantly, away from their mother, but you should really arm yourself with a good solicitor and expert advice. The kids have a right to a relationship with you as well as with him, and if you're refusing to go, and refusing your permission to let them go, then he would have to try and force the issue through legal proceedings. Do you think he has the appetite to take you to court over this? And if so, it will likely be the end of your marriage as well, does he understand that?

They are 12, 10, 8. Yes I'll go to a solicitor. No I don't think he has appetite to go through court but who knows. Thanks for advice re persuading them-that's really useful.

I think he thinks the marriage is already over because I'm refusing to leave and he can't be here. And no, as far as I know he hasn't looked into any practicalities-ie legal right to work there, schools etc

I was married to a serial mover OP. He just could not settle anywhere and kept expecting the dc to uproot as well. I know that moving my ds whilst really young did him no favours .. for various reasons. I am not saying that all children don't cope well, but I knew my ds wouldn't and he didn't and I don't think I can ever forgive myself for not standing up for him.

Once we moved to where were are now, he wanted to move on elsewhere. And I was not having it. He took a job that entailed him travelling a lot, which kept him at bay for a bit.

We divorced for all sorts of reasons, but this was one of them. The grass is always greener on the other side in his mind.... until you get to that grass. Then other grass is better etc etc.

With your update today, I would seriously think about your future with him. Yours and your dc. He will never be happy anywhere. And this is going to affect your marriage, your family and your dc.

(ps my ex moved to another country again the same month we got divorced, and a few years later decided to come back here again. He since remarried and now plans are in place to them to move again. It is never going to end).

This sounds so familiar. Wanting that other life, thinking its ok to uproot everyone, for him to have not look into one minor detail about it.

That was all left to me to do. And like a fool I did it.

My ex's favourite line was, well you can never plan too much as things never go the way you expect them to anyway. Erm.... when you have children who need a home and stability, everything needs to be firmly planned.

It's draining OP. I totally get it. He will never be happy. Don't let him drag you all around in his fantasy life.

I would be minded to act quite fast here - the older the kids are the more weight is given to their wishes.

@purplejeanie It's a tough situation, I have a DH who talks often about leaving the country, he's never felt settled here, similar to yours, he moved here in his late teens. I have some sympathy for him, but he chose to marry me and have children here, he did all that willingly, so now he has to prioritise the kids and their need for stability. He largely accepts that though, it sounds like your DH doesn't see that as important at all.

I can't help but think though that your DH's fantasy life will probably not look quite so sunny and carefree if he's stuck managing 4 children on his own alongside working, because you've decided not to go with him. He needs you along to do all the grunt work, otherwise his plan just isn't possible. Getting him to see that though is another story. You have my sympathy, it must be a nightmare living with him.

I'm a bit of a serial mover myself and find it hard to stay in one place for too long, but luckily my kids are exactly the same so they have moved around a lot. I did force one move on my ex-husband in the 20-something years we were together, but that was to his home country as he refused to go to mine. He is still there but I have since divorced him and left. Anyways, for each and every one of the moves I have made I have done extensive research. For me that has been a part of the fun bit and it adds excitement to the whole process. I am a bit surprised your H hasn't bothered to do that. If he had he would have also known that unless your kids have severe SEN, homeschooling isn't allowed in Greece.
Either way, unless you have been a terrible mum who has abandoned your children for large parts of their childhood, there is no way he will be allowed to move to Greece, or any other country, without your consent. Unfortunately I think that your kids will get drawn into this since he is working on manipulating them into going with him, so you might as well sit them down and explain what is happening and what is the likely outcome for them if they move to Greece.

His restless feeling must be very compelling to be so caught up in it that he'll overlook destroying his family unit and manipulate his kids. Did he move around a lot as a kid, or maybe have a very unstable home life in other ways?

It sounds like he's labeling his own problematic responses to life as being exciting, spontaneous, bohemian, romantic etc (basically better than everyone else trapped in the boring hum drum). Of course the reality is that its probably his own unaddressed mental health creating the feeling of being unable to sit still. We all validate our own choices in this way a little bit but this is really extreme.

I wonder if he could be convinced that he has an opportunity here to give his kids the v precious gift of stability and roots- something he doesn't have and leaves him miserable and unsatisfied with life. A chance to allow them to form strong bonds with an area and the people there - it will serve them well in life and help them to be mentally resilient adults. Would that help him reframe it maybe? Right now he's convincing himself of the benefits for them of moving, but the benefits of staying far outweigh the moving ones. It sounds like his mind is on such a one way track that it may not have even occured to him the benefits of going (for the kids) aren't better than the benefits of staying. I would spell it out to him, even the obvious stuff, because his frantic brain is not doing any sensible thinking.

I think what will be his downfall OP is the old project management mantra 'failing to plan is planning to fail'

It isn't as straightforward as he thinks. From what you said I don't think he's Greek or even EU citizen- you can't just 'rock up' in these countries with no plans these days --Brexit has put paid to that. . And even if on paper he earns enough to be able to get a 'nomad visa' There are very strict conditions in place on money in bank, earnings, what kind of work etc . Add in about schooling with children when they don't speak language - that means international schools- not cheap and not available usually in the more budget friendly locations. And if he works for a uk company whilst he may be able to work remotely- they don't usually allow you to have an overseas base on an employee basis- due to tax and benefit legislation.

He is trying to isolate you and make you give up work.

He is using the kids against you.

Hide the kids’ passports at a relative’s place asap.

This is awful. I am so sorry you are with this man.

Second the advice to hide the passports. But as far as I know he can’t take them out of the country without your permission as it would be kidnapping.
Keep stressing out to the kids that life would be very hard without knowing the language and having friends there.
Sorry you have to deal with this level of selfish/crazy.

Your husband sounds like a more extreme version of my mother. From someone who has moved around a lot during childhood, sometimes to places where I didn't speak the language, it is really hard to integrate and you're constantly an outsider. There is no way to do this that doesn't negatively impact on your education. I really relate to another poster earlier in the thread who said that they feel like they don't belong anywhere. I don't either and I'm having to accept that I won't ever put down roots in the way I would like. I agree with others that this is probably not realistic, but regardless I would strongly resist this in your children's best interests.

Thanks all. Really helpful. I won't move and won't let him take the kids. I'm taking passports to my mum's. He will relentlessly go on and on and on but I won't give in. Will be interesting to see if he does actually move on his own.

@purplejeanie when you talk to your solicitor, you might want to talk through the advice in https://rightsofwomen.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Children-and-the-law-child-abduction-DIGITAL.pdf It's unlikely he'll go through with it, but it's probably less traumatic to try and prevent him taking your kids than to try and get them back.