To think 11 is not too young to travel on a train alone?

[Tellmeifimwrong]

Please settle a debate! Happy to hear all opinions.

Is 11 years old, starting y7 in Sept, too young to take a one hour train journey, without parents but with a slightly younger child? Put on at one end by an adult and met at the other end by an adult, with a phone and data, and train staff informed? No behavioural problems or SEN.

@AskMeMore if you had bothered to read beyond the headline you would have seen this about 4 paragraphs down (the narrative that on one intervened was incorrect because the encounter was so prolonged that no one was present for the entire duration)

“While Ngoy’s alleged interactions with the victim took place over a 40-minute period, starting with unwanted talking and then groping, the rape lasted about six minutes. Other riders were not on the train for the entire duration of their interaction, and might not have known what was happening, Stollsteimer said.”

Regardless of timing or location, shit happens on trains. And no amount of pussy footing around saying the world is full of flowers and lovely people and entirely sensible children programmed by their parents will take away from the fact that if a predator singles out a child to abuse in any manner they will try to given the opportunity - they will specifically target the child who is unguarded and vulnerable.

I agree the world is not a wonderful place. I have been a victim too. But I also do not live a half life to avoid rare scenarios and I do not want that for my child either.

Regardless of timing or location, shit happens on trains. And no amount of pussy footing around saying the world is full of flowers and lovely people and entirely sensible children programmed by their parents will take away from the fact that if a predator singles out a child to abuse in any manner they will try to given the opportunity - they will specifically target the child who is unguarded and vulnerable.

Bad things do happen. But instead of hiding children away, it is far better for them to develop the skills necessary to negotiate the outside world. And looking anxious, not confident, not knowing what you're doing, does make people more of a target. So make sure children are clear, confident, to not dither, to keep walking, to plan the journey ahead, follow Google maps before hand so that they know what an unknown area looks like and where to go, have a phone, location on, spare battery, who to ask when in doubt, be available to talk them through where they are stuck, these things and more are how you begin to support your child on the path to independence. The more they do it, the better / more confident they become at it.

Exactly this.

@AskMeMore that’s fair enough.

I don’t consider driving DC or walking them (until secondary) a half life. I consider it being guarded and preventing scenarios that could destroy their future happiness and mental health (or worse). Because I value that more than them being fractionally more independent than their peers.

@AskMeMore so would you be happy with OPs train journey if the DC were 12 years old? So in a matter of months time.

@AskMeMore you start preparing your child for Uni and more radical independence from about 15. That is three years. Having already helped them with developing life skills such as cooking/cleaning/washing/managing workload from about 6. And had them out and about with you on public transport, abroad etc from the beginning. Anyone totally mollycoddled will likely be still living at home entirely or will go home most weekends anyway.

All this pushing young children into potentially dangerous situations in order that their adult self has an easier time seems nonsensical to me.

So 15 to 18 they are expected to learn from scratch how to manage being in public alone during some of the most dangerous years for them to do exactly that?

@AskMeMore presuming you were talking to me.

I have already said I would be happy with my DC going on a train to and from school from age 12 because there will be older children/teachers there designated to supervise/help (in the background) if there is a problem and a large no. of peers to raise the alarm if anything goes wrong.

I wouldn’t be happy for DC to be on a train for a longer journey of an hour or two on their own (without classmates), or gallivanting around randomly by themselves for prolonged periods, until about 16, because I think it just opens the door for trouble - assault, bullying, drug use, drinking, making a nuisance of themselves, underage sex, not being where they’re supposed to be, the list goes on.

For goodness sake. It won’t be from scratch DC are constantly on public transport and out with us/others.

We had an awful experience when we were shopping recently where a bunch of abandoned youths (8-10yrs) decided to corner us and make insults towards one of my children because it was clear he was special needs.

It took all my strength to hold my tongue, then security came and they were likewise rude and obnoxious to them before being moved on.

I was disgusted that these kids had just been let loose and sorry for them their parents were being so negligent to just abandon them to the streets to be abusive and a nuisance to others.

Their behaviour was horrendous.

I’m sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree with you having experienced children “let out” to develop their independence both as a child and adult. I absolutely do not want my kids brought up that way.

It is one thing to send a child on an errand to the shop and for them to politely go there and back. Another for a kid to be let out for large portions of the day where they are unaccountable.

All this pushing young children into potentially dangerous situations in order that their adult self has an easier time seems nonsensical to me.

Children guide it themselves. There's certainly no pushing here. If they want to do something, I give it consideration /risk assess as to whether it's safe and possible, and if it is, I support them to do it. I'm really glad, looking at my happy, confident and independent children, that I have given them this gift. We build on their skills, all the time, not just expect them to learn it all in one go when they are adult. That is nonsensical.

agree partly. But many of these are things to do with primary-aged kids not secondary when the insta stuff kicks in.

it’s also bizarre that you equate taking a train to a place where they are met the other end/ doing something specific as ‘roaming around’. Roaming around is what happens more locally and bizarrely many parents who don’t let their 14 year olds get the train to the large shopping centre in our nearest city have no issue with them hanging round in our more local town. I am much stricter about that, and put time limits and want to know where dd is going as the hanging around in the park etc is where drug taking etc is more likely.

Their behaviour was horrendous

Yeah. Not all our children behave like this. Mine certainly wouldn't. Do you think yours would be abusive to strangers if you gave them more freedom then?

No one can protect their child all of the time. Terrible things do happen but it's not right to live in such an anxious state as a parent that it clouds your judgement of what is safe.

The UK is one of the safest places in the world. The number of murders or child abductions is tiny each year and although each is a tragedy, they are often perpetrated by family or friends or someone previously trusted.

As a parent you look at each situation and assess the risks. You mitigate them by teaching your child the life skills to cope. That can include technology which kids didn't have in the past. (I used to have to carry coins to use a phone box and learn how to make a reverse charge call.)

The risk to a child aged 11 on a 1 hour train ride in daylight is tiny and almost insignificant. They are more likely to die or be injured in an RTA driven by you or your friends or biking around the streets where you live.

Because so many families have cars, children being self-reliant and never going anywhere except with a parent, is the norm now. It wasn't years ago.

It's acknowledged that children are over-protected and there have been many comments on this by experts including books called Free Range Parenting, about how parents can help their kids become self-reliant and safe.

@Jonei absolutely no way.

The only kids (preteens) I see hanging around on the streets around shopping areas or in parks on their own etc are unfortunately the ones who are cursing and behaving badly…

It could be as we’re in a more urban area. But children are generally with their parents/in the parks/gardens/at activities. See the neighbours kids (10/11) walk 5min to shop and back together… but that’s it. No primary age kids walk on their own to school. Only seen two primary girls (sisters) on bus once… Perhaps in the countryside it is different.

I live in a busy city, not the countryside. And primary kids often do walk to the local school where I am, I've seen some primary aged catching the train to their school as well. it's perfectly normal. Granted a small number of kids out there on their own are a bit of a pain. Not many though. I can only think of a few examples. The vast majority are fine. They're just getting on with whatever it is they are out to do.

I am in a City and see kids walking to school by themselves and going to the local shops or playing football in the park. There are kids that are badly behaved and they tend to be out at all times of the day and night.

@AskMeMore “There are kids that are badly behaved and they tend to be out at all times of the day and night.”

Agree with this… it does seem to be in some families, a child reaches 6 and they’re let loose to be out aimlessly and I would frown upon this but have no issue with shops/footie/school independence if that’s what the parents want to do and kids are coping. It’s just not want I would do/can do until slightly older.

If we were talking about 12/13 yr olds on train probably everyone would say fine as they are together. 10/11 is just a little shy of what most would be comfortable with but not beyond realms of possibility.

And yet somehow children of previous generations managed to get to adulthood without being totally corrupted by catching the bus to school?

16 is very late for a child to be allowed out for prolonged periods of time. They're not far off adulthood. Legal to have sex / have a baby, but only just allowed out for longer periods of time. Absolutely mental. It's not just the independence, it's the ability to be able to critically think for themselves. All that is lost when we wrap our children up in cotton wool until they are virtually adults. It's not doing the right thing for them.

There’s a big difference between hanging around in parks and not being able to join in with peers eg go to cinema or bowling in school hols at 15 because your mum won’t let you get a train into nearest big town.

How do you know?

Because you don't until they are caught.

How will being with classmates reduce the risk of drug use, drinking, making a nuisance of themselves, underage sex, not being where they’re supposed to be compared with being on their own?

You are also a bit deluded if you think teachers and older children are going to be supervising your child if they go to school on a train.

Actually teachers and older pupils do reduce children being a nuisance on public transport.

I use to hate getting on buses at school kicking out time which is prolonged due to clubs. Then I noticed after Covid all teens from the schools on the bus routes I need to use have been behaving themselves in terms of not making a massive noise on buses.

@WomblingTree86 kids on the train routes I use to take back from work - as I use to start early so leave early - were never a nuisance.