To think that this FLY business is just another way of trying to convince women that service is what they are meant for?

[madamez]

We've had house-work-is-what-FAther-Xmas-made-women-for.
We've had housework is the standard on which a woman's morals are judged.
Now we have housework as therapy: FInally Loving Yourself. What's loving about knocking yourself out with drudgery? Surely it's more self-loving to say, bollocks to doing more than the minimum, mess is no big deal and my time is far too precious to wipe skirting boards twice a day?

bolleaux xenia

i am mother not cleaner

This thread has brought a swathe of new people to Fly. Sorry, Madamez. You're just going to have to chain yourself to some railings.

i agree with xnias last post

Mother, not cleaner? What do you mean? That if you're at home with the children you shouldn't do the cleaning in the day? I would have thought that was only fair. You can strap a baby to your front in a sling and hoover surely.

If housewives these days don't think they should be responsible for the cleaning then may be this fly thing is needed. It's part of the job description. What's the point of working so hard to keep a non working housewife if she doesn't do the job properly? You might as well get her back to work and work hard like her husband has to and pay a cleaner and for childcare.

hmm a baby yes but toddler and four year old
plus 5 kids take some cleaning up after

please Xenia i am university educated woman living in 2008 - my fore-mothers may have been housewives - i am not

Xenia - given that, by your own admission, you have never been a housewife, I would ask you to avoid giving us advice on how to manage our time.

Wow, I actually agree with Xenia last post !!! Though it is much easier to hoover with baby in a sling on your back, ditto iron and cook

I believe in fair spilting of house work, child care and outside work, every family need to decide what works for them.

In our home I do the food shopping, some cooking, cleaning and all the childcare. My husband works long hours and does some cooking (which he enjoys) I make sure he gets a couple of lie ins at the weekend and he has daddy time with DD for a couple of hours at the weekend to give me a break, which I use to shop, cinema or now I am pregnant...sleep

The Finally Loving Yourself (FLY) bit is meaning finally after you our have done all the house-work slogged your guts out and have a polished sink, by then you are knackered and dirty, and I reckon have approx 6 mins to indulge yourself. Forget it, have a g&t and paint your nails. Read the paper. Get a life..

"I CHOOSE, instead, to post on Fly most days BECAUSE IT HELPS ME. I laugh at Flylady's evangelism, I don't buy her products, I USE her as it suits me. One day my kids will be grown and I won't need her any more."

You don't need her now. Your life could be more than cleaning religiously ...

I agree with Xenia, if you are staying at home looking after the children then you should also be keeping a tidy and clean house, unless their are extenuating circumstances (ie lots of small children, children with special needs etc). Our nanny always tidied up after herself as well as keeping the children happy, going to the park etc, if I was at home I don't see why I shouldn't be able to do the same. Having a university education just gives you other options than staying at home, it doesn't mean that you are incapable of using a hoover! In my view SAHP = someone who looks after the children and the house too (which is one reason I work!)

i couldnt manage everything - i didnt do ironing we did our own - i did the kids

dh id his fair share of washing clothes

i made sure kitchen and liing area was kinda decent - vacumed at least - and always had tea on table when dh got in. - but he made his own sandwiches for work.

he changed nappies when he was at home

I don't really get why it's such a big deal to have a clean and tidy house at all. Washing up has to be done when you've run out of things to cook with and eat off (because it becomes expensive and unethical to use disposable plates and cutlery all the time), laundry has to be done (for the same reasons of ethics and expense) but as long as you;ve arough idea wihere things are, why bother with tidying up and cleaning things that are only going to be messed up again? OK if it actually does make you feel that much better to have a tidy house, or you get any satisfaction out of it, then go ahead, fine, far be it from me to condemn anyone's ways of feeling better if freely chosen. But if you find all this sort of thing tedious and depressing, being told that accepting your menial role will make you much happier just sticks in the craw, somehow.

Bollocks to Xenia (once again). As a SAHM I have NEVER taken on more of a share of the housework. OK, I do usually cook dinner, but that's where it ends. We share cleaning and tidying. My job is to look after my son, not to fanny around in an apron all day playing house. Maybe I am in the minority (I probably am) but my husband and I are both very happy with the arrangement. I don't want to spend more than the absolute bare minimum of my time cleaning, and my husband has never found the housewifely type sexy

woohoo mrs mattie

So this has turned into a "I'm a better feminist than you" discussion. Sorry, but this has fuck all to do with feminism.

Neither DP nor I have any natural drive to keep the house straight, the difference is (as experienced my many women here) that it depresses me to live in a shit hole whereas DP doesn't even notice it. I don't get down because of the impression I feel it gives to outsiders, more because stuff gets lost, stuff gets dirty and I worry about what DS will try to eat when the floor doesn't get hoovered regularly. Therefore I have more impetus to get the house straight and FLYing helps me enormously.

I could get a cleaner but, personally, I find it morally degrading to pay another woman (because, lets be honest, 99% of the time it would be a woman) to clean up after me.

Your life could be more than cleaning religiously ...

I don't clean religiously, I clean the bare minimum, and my life is full to brimming thank you very much.

I am genuinely surprised. It's true I've never been a housewife but I would have thought if one of you stayed at home it wasn't unreasonable to get most of the cleaning done during the day (unless you can afford a cleaner or have a brand new baby when it's hard enough even to dress never mind clean. It's kind of part of the job isn't it or are we saying if you are a graduate ex professional mother at home then you don't do housework in the day just read magazines and look after the children and when your husband gets home you both do housework whereas if you never had much of a career then you do the housework? I would have thought whatever your past qualifications if you're a housewife yo ukeep house. No wonder some men get fed up these days. Why have a housewife if she's only prepared to do part of the job description.

In general the main thing is to marry someone with the same standards as you. I can't stand mess and the house is reasonably clean although with 5 children/adult children around it's never exactly how I want it and my ex husband was similar. It's when people have different standards that it matters. madamez is the other category...why bother when things just get messed up again? Because then you can find things if they are tidy, because you get back to square one rather than starting dirty and getting dirtier or messier, because I think children like to live in a tidy home. I remember my ex husband telling me about all the different homes he went to to teach music in and how much families do differ - one had stuff just piled up all over the place on every surface.

My husband isn't fed up, Xenia. He is grateful to me for doing the job I do, just as I am grateful to him for doing what he does for our family. (Oh, and we've never used the word 'housewife' to describe what I do - ie. taking a break from my career to look after my son full time).

My husband didn't marry me for my housekeeping abilities

Re Flylady's insane US christian fundamentalism, that is disturbing but it doesn't really affect the effectiveness of her advice. IKEA was founded by a lunatic nazi apparantly, but that doesn't affect the furniture.

If all the children are at school, and you are a SAHM, surely the sensible and fair thing is to get as much of the cleaning, laundry and housekeeping out of the way during those school hours. Not saying work straight through, but it is a good 5-6 hours, can get lots done even in half that time.

Or is the deal still to only do 50% of the housework, laundry and cleaning and wait for dh to come home in evenings and on weekends to do the remaining 50%? Puzzled.

I would have thought the former so that weekends and evenings can be enjoyed as family time. Isn't that the advantage of strict division of roles between breadwinner and homemaker, the time that having only one WOHP can buy for the family?

Well you should use housewife because that's what someone is in that position and it's silly not to use it.

Yes, some wives are good at cleaning and keeping house and some aren't. Some men want those abilities in their wife who is to stay at home and some don't.

If I had a housewife who didn't do the cleaning when I was at work I would seriously consider why she was at home and not earning some money. The aim is to ease your life as a couple in evenings and weekends because stuff gets done whilst you're at work when she's at home surely.