To ask why some MNers are so against helping out families with young children?

[traytablestowed]

That really. I sense it's been done to death on here but nonetheless, I am interested to hear from retired people who don't help out with their grandchildren - why not? As a parent who has been surprised by the lack of support from my own family, I'm actually curious to hear all points of view - all comments welcome and I'm not looking for a fight here.

My main feeling is that if you love and care for your family and you are physically able you will try to do whatever it takes to help them out. It’s nothing to do with your children being entitled, it’s just what lots of caring families do.
I sometimes wonder if the lovely people at Mumsnet HQ post “controversial” or argumentative replies to posters just to keep a thread going.

@Kolakalia to be fair, I didn't ask for help so it's not like a promise has been negated on. I think I just assumed, without really thinking about it closely, that my parents would help me out in the same way that their parents had helped them out when I was younger (ie. quite a lot). But they haven't. I understand that the obligation is on me to deal with my feelings around this, and I want to - hence this thread.
Really, it's not so much about me wanting free childcare but more about re-evaluating my relationship with my parents, because it's not quite what I thought it was.
It has been useful to hear the perspectives of people in similar situations, I can perhaps try to take my parents' approach less personally. It seems more likely to be circumstantial than them just being straight-up AHs.

I think it's understandable to find it challenging. It's hard sometimes not to equate how much time someone spends with us or how much help they give with how much they care/love us. If you've seen your generations above have that sort of care then it makes sense you'd naturally expect it might be the same for you, and the very fact you're trying to understand and not just complaining and recognise it's about your feelings shows you're not entitled at all, just a little hurt and trying to reframe your thoughts and feelings.

I think I expected my dad to be more into my child than he is too, he lives a couple hours away and we only see him maybe once every 4-5 months or so. I'm sure he loves him and he does ask after him and respond positively to photos etc., he's just living his own life doing his own thing and I've learned to accept and respect that and be pleased for him. He's in a different phase of life and I'm glad he's enjoying the time he has left. It's easy to look around at families that are super close and spend time together every week, kids stay at grandma's most weekends, and think wow, why isn't that us? But real families are all so different, messy, and complicated!

I can totally understand grandparents not wanting to commit to a regular childcare slot as it’s so limiting to their own plans and looking after young kids is bloody exhausting, but I’ve really struggled with my DH’s side who won’t even take the DC for an occasional overnight stay (even once a year) so that DH and I could have a break. That’s the sort of support that’s difficult to replicate with paid childcare so the only option is to wait for the kids to get bigger and hope they get invited to sleep overs!

Not wanting to do something is a legitimate reason not to do it. They don't need other reasons.

That attitude is so pervasive on MN, and I don't get it at all. It's like once you have a child you have to just care for people for the rest of your life and never have a life of your own. And if you elect not to care for your grandchildren then your children are justified in just dropping you and not caring for you in your old age. If your relationship with your parents is really a quid pro quo then the fact that they raised you to adulthood should be enough for you to care for them and their old age.

It doesn’t work like that. Nobody asks to be born - it’s a bit like cleaning someone’s house without asking them then demanding they do the same for you. The whole idea is that you’re ‘paying it forward’, preferably because you want to and have a sense of family. I agree regular childcare (1 day a week or more) is a big ask and not to be expected, but being an emergency contact? Babysitting once a month? If you’re in good health and not extremely old is that too much to ask?

Okay you didn't ask to be born, but your parents didn't choose for you to have children either. 🤷‍♀️ I don't look at any of my relationships as a tit for tat kind of arrangement but people on MN seem to. I don't expect my children to care for me in my old age nor do I want them to. However, it's the nasty people who say things like "well if they don't babysit for my kids then I'm not going to help them out when they're older" that I don't understand. IF you look at your relationship with your parents that way, then you're already indebted to them because they raised you. And therefore you owe them even if they don't ever do anything else.

Not wanting to do something is a legitimate reason not to do it. They don't need other reasons.

@steff13 I mean, yeah, technically they don't need other reasons. But if the only reason someone has for not helping out their family is because they simply don't want to... well they're not going to go to prison for it, but it's not exactly a great look is it?

It feels like the 'expectation' of help comes from memories of a generation where women did not work outside the home and became grandmothers at a much younger age.

Today's grandmothers will work full time for 45 years, retire at 67 after also bringing up a family, caring for their own parents and running a household etc. They will be exhausted in a way that previous generations simply were not. I know lots of women in their 50s and 60s who are so so tired "doing it all".

To think that when I reach 67 I will then be judged against some unrealistic expectation and found lacking if I'm not keen to help out the younger members of my family when they want me to, makes me feel like there is no where to turn.

Bringing up children is hard work and repetitive. But most everybody would like support and a break from all sorts of things. Should I be disappointed at the lack of support from members of my family that don't offer to give me a break, help me clean the house? Or mow the lawn? Or do the grocery shopping? When they know I am tired and work long hours.

So many factors need to be in place for the expectation of help to be fair:

Grandparents who are retired, in good health, financially stable and live close by AND the existing family dynamic/ habit is already one where everybody routinely gives everybody else a break by stepping in to help out with everyday responsibilities.

@traytablestowed - maybe it is ‘not a good look’ or maybe it is someone drawing their own, perfectly reasonable boundary.

Regarding the reasons why people might not want to look after their grandchildren when retired - there are many, imo. Perhaps, having worked hard all their lives, and raised their own children, they want to relax and enjoy their freedom to travel or enjoy their hobbies, or simply take life easy, without any of the restrictions that regular childcare would place on them.

They might just be too tired to want to cope with small children - I have raised three boys, and now I am nearly 60, and I can tell you that there is no way on God’s clean earth, that I have the energy to keep up with small children now. Part of that is depression, weight issues and long covid, but most people have less energy in their retirement years than they had when they were parenting young children. It is not unreasonable of them to say that they don’t have the energy to provide regular childcare.

If they can, and they are happy to offer childcare, that is great - but I don’t think anyone has the right to demand it or to get cross if their parents can’t or won’t offer it.

I understand the first one, as regular childcare is a big job and I do think that's a lot to ask grandparents. I really don't understand grandparents who will never do the odd bit of babysitting or who don't want to have grandkids over to stay etc. I find that strange.

Ah, but they are wicked, selfish boomers who have ruined a generation's lives. How very dare they want anything...

@Timesawastin thank you for that very constructive response.

The demographic of Grandparent has changed.

People had children much younger - being a first time parent over 30 was very rare in the past. So people became grandparents younger. Many women didn’t work. Those that did retired at 60 at the latest. People didn’t live as long. People didn’t move as far away from their families.

My mum was a grandmother at 52. At 54 I’ve got one child in 6th form. She retired at 55, I will be eligible to retire at 67. Her parents died in their early 70s. We’re juggling care for parents in their 80s with increasingly complicated needs. My older children are in different cities, not around the corner.

I’m a fair way off being a grandmother but I can clearly see a difference between her experience and what mine is likely to be (should my lot decide to have kids - I’m making no assumptions)

I think it’s great to help out when you can, and spend time with grandchildren, but today’s society isn’t structured in a way that makes it easy.

But don't you think that in a normal functioning society, most people in most circumstances would probably expect help to be offered by people who care about them?

I don't know - I don't expect help from anyone apart from DH, really. If other people offer help, I see it as a bonus - it's not something I rely or on expect from other people.

This is what I am trying to get my head around. I don't feel entitled to help but I am surprised and honestly hurt that it hasn't been offered.

Surely if you didn't feel entitled to help, you wouldn't feel hurt that help hasn't been offered, though?

I started this thread to try to understand why it maybe hasn't, and I've had some useful responses to think about. Peppered of course with the occasional banging on about entitlement, as if family members pitching in with childcare is some sort of new concept, rather than something that has been happening for literally thousands of years.

But we live in 2023, not 1753 or even 1953. Life is different now. The vast majority of women work out of the home and aren't physically available to do childcare. People are also having children at a much older age, which means people aren't becoming grandparents until their seventies - and are therefore not really capable of offering a huge amount of help or support. I mean, I'm only 34 and DH is 39 - but my parents are nearly 70 and then IL's are nearly 80 - there's no way they could offer any kind of regular childcare.

Whereas when I was born, my mum's parents were only in their late fifties - those 10-20 years make a massive difference.

Sarcasm not your forte, eh?

Going into a care home is usually a difficult, heartbreaking decision for a family to make, the process of getting a place isn’t remotely easy and the person concerned has had a high level of need long before a care home would even be considered. It’s not a punishment for not providing endless free childcare to their children/grand children. What a transactional way to view relationships.

I see this a lot on MN. "Don't want to watch the grandkids? Fine, but don't expect me to visit you when you're old and ill."

I'm in my early 60's and nobody I know in my age group has any expectation whatsoever that their adult children will provide any type of elder care in coming years. They do not want to be a burden to their children and have made financial arrangements (as best they can) to provide for paid help if or when it's needed.

So this not-so-thinly-veiled threat of abandonment when your elderly and vulnerable doesn't hold much weight. 🙄

Also, I wasn't replying to you.

Quite. The whole OP post is disingenuous, and his summary explains why. Define "a normal functioning society" for a start.
And before OP jumps on me, I don't (and won't) have any grandchildren so the question is moot.

this summary

There have been plenty of threads on here in the past where people have moaned about boomers getting their state pension at 60 to 65 and plenty of posters cheering on the changes to the state pension and Pension Credit. And saying Well I will have to retire later so why shouldnt they So that older people have to carry on working.

Well then you cant expect them to be available for childcare. Should have been careful what you wished for.

But don't you think there is a distinction to be drawn between

1. "I feel entitled to help from my family", which roughly translates to a feeling that it is your family's duty to provide you with help, simply because they are your family.

And

1. "I thought I'd get help from my family", which roughly translates to a general feeling that your family would help you out if needed because they want to - because they care about you.

I am coming from the second point of view.

Nobody on this thread has said that. It's not how I feel. Nobody gains from pitting generations against each other.

@Timesawastin I don't know why you think I'm being disingenuous.
I have a situation within my family life that I am unhappy with. I have asked for people to give their perspectives to try and help me see it from the other side. Many people have given me their thoughts, I've found this to be useful and have had some interesting discussions with some of the PPs.
If you don't have any grandchildren and the question is therefore moot, with the greatest of respect - why do you even care about this?!