Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Diane Abbott

894 replies

Flowerly · 23/04/2023 12:02

To say that Diane Abbott is doing her best to help the Labour Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

Hideous antisemitism seemingly not gone away at all and add that to the horrendous misogyny in the Labour Party I wonder at this point why ANYONE would vote for them.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
Flowerly · 24/04/2023 19:51

malapast · 24/04/2023 19:26

So what did you mean by this ?

Flowerly · 15/04/2023 09:36

Sweden has thrown women and girls under the bus and have been trying to keep the rise in rape/sexual assault quiet. It is the wrong kind of perpetrator you see.
suburbophobe · 14/04/2023 22:13

Sweden has mass killings and rapes.

You really can't throw that out there without giving some evidence i.e. a link or two @TodayInahurry

I read two country's news and have not come across that kind of sensationalist reporting. If true it would be all over the worldwide headlines I reckon.
I also have friends in Sweden.

I meant that, similar to the Cologne co-ordinated attacks on women, the race of the perpetrators caused an issue and the Left tried to silence and shut down discussion on this. Very similar to the UK's grooming gang situation. Whichever way you look at this, women and girls suffer.

If that's what you consider to be racist then so be it.

https://unherd.com/2021/04/swedens-migrant-rape-crisis/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/09/the-left-must-admit-the-truth-about-the-assaults-on-women-in-cologne

Sweden's migrant rape crisis

European liberals never ask uncomfortable questions about immigration

https://unherd.com/2021/04/swedens-migrant-rape-crisis

OP posts:
PipinwasAuntieMabelsdog · 24/04/2023 20:10

Jews and Roma were used as slave labour by the Nazis, they were worked to death. They were transported from their homes and countries for the purpose. They were denied their social, political and human rights. Surviving descendants carry trauma. It seems pretty analogous to slavery to me. However, it's not a matter of 'top trumps' the problem is the denial of the experiences of swathes of people. DA was in the wrong.

rootsandfruits1 · 24/04/2023 20:11

Jewish, Irish and Roma people have also been persecuted over the centuries, but not in the way Black African/Asian heritage people have. They have not been owned, shipped, lynched, dehumanised or colonised for their own benefit. Then forced to fight for their freedom and land/resources/countries from imperialist governments, aside from the Irish.

Bloody hell. Is being herded onto trains like cattle and put in gas ovens not dehumanising enough for you? This and the rest of your post reeks of insidious antisemitism. You just don't quite say it do you? @squirrelslikenuts

BigMandsTattooPortfolio · 24/04/2023 20:18

Roma people were enslaved in regions of Romania for 500 years.

squirrelslikenuts · 24/04/2023 20:46

@highfidelity
Interesting you pick out one word in my post ' Dehumanising'.

Yes, it is true the Jewish and Roma were rounded up at various times over the past centuries in different places, persecuted and killed.

But, they lived in these societies, before being scapegoated for economic problems or theft. I do know the Jewish were forced to live in ghettos in I.e Italy, as a result.

Now how do think they got the black people to the US, Caribbean and South America. There were mass kidnappings, people bought and sold like animals. Examined like animals, the weaker ones killed along the long journey to the slave ports. Now, think about the manacles and slave ships over 400 years, death on the sea, to the survivors got to the destination to be sold all over again. Troublemakers were lashed, hobbled or bits cut off or killed to show the rest an example.

Then they were forced to work until their death, their children taken from them also forced work once they could. They were not allowed to couple up, rape was common both by master and fellow slave. Until the Civil war in the US, there was no freedom of person or movement, and even then many had keep working unpaid as there was nowhere to go. Any black person who challenged the status quo, beatings, burnt down churches and homes, rape, hangings and lynchings all to keep a race in line.

During days of empire, whether British, French, Spanish or Portuguese. Even the Belgians who were the worst. Lands were ceased, new nations were drawn up, splitting tribes and families.

People were massacred, and forced to acknowledge the invaders as rulers, until the fight for independence started in India (see the mess there between India ^ Pakistan ). Forced to speak a foreign language, give up their religion and rulers as well as their resources.
Most sent food etc during the world wars, whilst young men joined up to fight.

Come through to today, people of Black heritage still have to face direct and indirect racism. We are still told 'empire' was for our benefit. We are told our experience of racism are not as bad as we think, by people who are not us. When we ask for reparations or debts to be cancelled there are umms and aahs and buts. But slave owners got compensation, and their heirs. Jewish people were able to see the Nazi leadership etc tried for crimes against humanity. And get their ancestors property back.

People of Black heritage can't. They can expect to have low educational outcomes and job prospects, they can expect the law and police to be tough on them. Even in Health, whether as a member of staff or a patient your experience maybe filled with indignities as a result of your colour. Employers see our names/or us and worry whether we'll fit in with the team. People are obsessed about our hair or hair styles. Although, our ancestors are/ were settled British citizens we suffer from Windrush deportations, despite living in Britain for all/most our lives.
Even, the police are killing Black people in and out of custody like the Americans. Many of our young men are well-represented in the Mental Health crises and under supported.

We are underrepresented in Politics, and those that do get through are maligned constantly for any slip, and their personal problems in the media especially the DM.

Please don't mention that we have not suffered enough. Don't mention that Diane Abbott doesn't understand our issues, or in response to a poor article, tried to raise how we people of colour (in fact, the darker, you are the worse) still suffer more racism, casual, institutional and direct (especially since Brexit) than we should, as opposed to those who are not.

Hope this helps clarify matters.

PipinwasAuntieMabelsdog · 24/04/2023 21:08

@squirrelslikenuts As a Jew, I find your post extremely offensive. Jews did not live in communities as a given before the holocaust. Those who did, did so as a result of heavy assimilation by their ancestors as a way of protecting themselves from being killed. Many changed their names, stopped practicing any form of the religion, lost their language and so on.

PipinwasAuntieMabelsdog · 24/04/2023 21:10

Oh and btw, very very few families got any of their property back! Angry

Jourdain11 · 24/04/2023 21:11

squirrelslikenuts · 24/04/2023 20:46

@highfidelity
Interesting you pick out one word in my post ' Dehumanising'.

Yes, it is true the Jewish and Roma were rounded up at various times over the past centuries in different places, persecuted and killed.

But, they lived in these societies, before being scapegoated for economic problems or theft. I do know the Jewish were forced to live in ghettos in I.e Italy, as a result.

Now how do think they got the black people to the US, Caribbean and South America. There were mass kidnappings, people bought and sold like animals. Examined like animals, the weaker ones killed along the long journey to the slave ports. Now, think about the manacles and slave ships over 400 years, death on the sea, to the survivors got to the destination to be sold all over again. Troublemakers were lashed, hobbled or bits cut off or killed to show the rest an example.

Then they were forced to work until their death, their children taken from them also forced work once they could. They were not allowed to couple up, rape was common both by master and fellow slave. Until the Civil war in the US, there was no freedom of person or movement, and even then many had keep working unpaid as there was nowhere to go. Any black person who challenged the status quo, beatings, burnt down churches and homes, rape, hangings and lynchings all to keep a race in line.

During days of empire, whether British, French, Spanish or Portuguese. Even the Belgians who were the worst. Lands were ceased, new nations were drawn up, splitting tribes and families.

People were massacred, and forced to acknowledge the invaders as rulers, until the fight for independence started in India (see the mess there between India ^ Pakistan ). Forced to speak a foreign language, give up their religion and rulers as well as their resources.
Most sent food etc during the world wars, whilst young men joined up to fight.

Come through to today, people of Black heritage still have to face direct and indirect racism. We are still told 'empire' was for our benefit. We are told our experience of racism are not as bad as we think, by people who are not us. When we ask for reparations or debts to be cancelled there are umms and aahs and buts. But slave owners got compensation, and their heirs. Jewish people were able to see the Nazi leadership etc tried for crimes against humanity. And get their ancestors property back.

People of Black heritage can't. They can expect to have low educational outcomes and job prospects, they can expect the law and police to be tough on them. Even in Health, whether as a member of staff or a patient your experience maybe filled with indignities as a result of your colour. Employers see our names/or us and worry whether we'll fit in with the team. People are obsessed about our hair or hair styles. Although, our ancestors are/ were settled British citizens we suffer from Windrush deportations, despite living in Britain for all/most our lives.
Even, the police are killing Black people in and out of custody like the Americans. Many of our young men are well-represented in the Mental Health crises and under supported.

We are underrepresented in Politics, and those that do get through are maligned constantly for any slip, and their personal problems in the media especially the DM.

Please don't mention that we have not suffered enough. Don't mention that Diane Abbott doesn't understand our issues, or in response to a poor article, tried to raise how we people of colour (in fact, the darker, you are the worse) still suffer more racism, casual, institutional and direct (especially since Brexit) than we should, as opposed to those who are not.

Hope this helps clarify matters.

If you think it's not acceptable for white people to minimise black peoples' experiences, how is it acceptable for you to minimise Jews' experiences?

Jourdain11 · 24/04/2023 21:13

And... are you honestly saying that Jewish people were scapegoated because of theft? And apparently your entire knowledge of the holocaust is that Jewish people had to live in ghettos in, ie

Jourdain11 · 24/04/2023 21:14

Italy... sorry posted to soon in my incredulity.

PipinwasAuntieMabelsdog · 24/04/2023 21:17

@squi You do know that Jews had their children removed from them in the holocaust right? Either they were gassed alongside their mothers or their mothers watched them be taken away to be gassed. Many children were also killed as their DPs watched, baby's heads smashed against walls... your ignorance is unbelievable! Angry

highfidelity · 24/04/2023 21:18

squirrelslikenuts · 24/04/2023 20:46

@highfidelity
Interesting you pick out one word in my post ' Dehumanising'.

Yes, it is true the Jewish and Roma were rounded up at various times over the past centuries in different places, persecuted and killed.

But, they lived in these societies, before being scapegoated for economic problems or theft. I do know the Jewish were forced to live in ghettos in I.e Italy, as a result.

Now how do think they got the black people to the US, Caribbean and South America. There were mass kidnappings, people bought and sold like animals. Examined like animals, the weaker ones killed along the long journey to the slave ports. Now, think about the manacles and slave ships over 400 years, death on the sea, to the survivors got to the destination to be sold all over again. Troublemakers were lashed, hobbled or bits cut off or killed to show the rest an example.

Then they were forced to work until their death, their children taken from them also forced work once they could. They were not allowed to couple up, rape was common both by master and fellow slave. Until the Civil war in the US, there was no freedom of person or movement, and even then many had keep working unpaid as there was nowhere to go. Any black person who challenged the status quo, beatings, burnt down churches and homes, rape, hangings and lynchings all to keep a race in line.

During days of empire, whether British, French, Spanish or Portuguese. Even the Belgians who were the worst. Lands were ceased, new nations were drawn up, splitting tribes and families.

People were massacred, and forced to acknowledge the invaders as rulers, until the fight for independence started in India (see the mess there between India ^ Pakistan ). Forced to speak a foreign language, give up their religion and rulers as well as their resources.
Most sent food etc during the world wars, whilst young men joined up to fight.

Come through to today, people of Black heritage still have to face direct and indirect racism. We are still told 'empire' was for our benefit. We are told our experience of racism are not as bad as we think, by people who are not us. When we ask for reparations or debts to be cancelled there are umms and aahs and buts. But slave owners got compensation, and their heirs. Jewish people were able to see the Nazi leadership etc tried for crimes against humanity. And get their ancestors property back.

People of Black heritage can't. They can expect to have low educational outcomes and job prospects, they can expect the law and police to be tough on them. Even in Health, whether as a member of staff or a patient your experience maybe filled with indignities as a result of your colour. Employers see our names/or us and worry whether we'll fit in with the team. People are obsessed about our hair or hair styles. Although, our ancestors are/ were settled British citizens we suffer from Windrush deportations, despite living in Britain for all/most our lives.
Even, the police are killing Black people in and out of custody like the Americans. Many of our young men are well-represented in the Mental Health crises and under supported.

We are underrepresented in Politics, and those that do get through are maligned constantly for any slip, and their personal problems in the media especially the DM.

Please don't mention that we have not suffered enough. Don't mention that Diane Abbott doesn't understand our issues, or in response to a poor article, tried to raise how we people of colour (in fact, the darker, you are the worse) still suffer more racism, casual, institutional and direct (especially since Brexit) than we should, as opposed to those who are not.

Hope this helps clarify matters.

Like I said in my initial post, I agree with many of your points, and do so in this post. However, and once more, you continue to highlight your ignorance with regards to Jews.

I have no interest in engaging with you further.

Socialdistancechampion · 24/04/2023 21:19

Some real cherry picking of history happening on here again.

The transatlantic slave trade was facilitated by ALL parties. It's an uncomfortable truth that African nations sold their own, but they did. That's how many slavers operated - have a war, sell off your surviving enemies into slavery to another enemy (or keep them for yourself). Every single walk of life has had some level of oppression in their history and some level of slavery.

The effects of the transatlantic slave trade are still in living memory.
The effects of the Holocaust are still in living memory.
The effects of apartheid are still in living memory.
The effects of the Irish Rebellion are still in living memory

There is no hierarchy of oppression. It's all. Shit.

PipinwasAuntieMabelsdog · 24/04/2023 21:20

There is no hierarchy of oppression. It's all. Shit.

This.

highfidelity · 24/04/2023 21:27

Yes, there is no hierarchy of racism or oppression.

But it is bewildering, shocking even how ignorant others are to what Jews have had to deal with since the beginning of time. And this ignorance is something many on this thread have demonstrated, and also Abbott herself when she minimised the persecution of Jews as being something lesser than what it is.

DeeCeeCherry · 24/04/2023 21:28

OP - Kier Starmer only accepts White apologies.

Diane Abbott is the most racially abused MP ever. Do you know what the Forde report is, and how furious Labour Party Democrats were that their racism was revealed in that report?

Her apology should be accepted, just as White apologies are. How swiftly Starmer moved to suspend her - yet Rupa Huq had the whip restored after calling Kwarteng 'superficially Black'. Islamophobia and Anti-Black racism in the Labour party is documented well enough. No outrage on that? Steve Reed put out an anti-Semitic tweet, he apologised and it was accepted. Same with Barry Sheerman. Do you think that's ok, as they are White men?

Disagree with what she said - fine. Clumsily worded letter - yes, it was. But to want a racially abused MP ousted and studiously ignore that White MPs aren't held to the same standards that she is, is just doubling down on dehumanising racism.

Put up shut up in the face of heinous racism but if you should ever snap and respond then you will be ostracised. She isn't allowed to make a mistake.

Diane Abbott should retire and go live in peace away from the endless noise of obnoxious racists, getting their rocks off at the chance to call a Black Woman who has lived with decade upon decade of Anti-Black abuse, 'racist'. Leave the Labour Party aka Tory-Lite to their hierarchy of racism.

Jourdain11 · 24/04/2023 21:29

Rupa Huq isn't white...

highfidelity · 24/04/2023 21:33

I don't disagree that Abbott hasn't been treated appalling and endured much racism. However, she also made a gross error of judgement. The Labour Party has a huge problem with antisemitism and in this instance, removing her was the only option.

highfidelity · 24/04/2023 21:33

*appallingly

Ketzele · 24/04/2023 21:35

notanotheroneagain · 23/04/2023 18:04

Yes, she is.

I forgot that part. Don't know how she is seen as 'anti-semitic' at the same time.

I think the main thing is that 'racist' seems rightly, the worst thing to be. So some may feel prejudices against themselves are not taken as seriously. Hence the defence. I think everyone would agree that racism/homophobia/anti semitism/ colourism (including hair colourism)/misogyny etc. are all bad.

But I think we have to also recognise how some forms of bigotry change and affect someone's life at a deeper level than others.

Will your son just be stopped and searched on the street?
Arrested and tackled by police,(sometimes killed) even when they did nothing wrong?
Police not bother with deep investigation when something happens to you?
Will someone not call you for an interview because of who they think you are based on your name on the CV, or what you look like during the interview or your picture?

Apologises to the posters who took offence about my description of a black person, basically. But I was agreeing with most of what poc are saying on this thread.

No, she's not. Goldberg is not her birth name.

LexMitior · 24/04/2023 21:39

She is a bloody idiot to undo her own career and also, be racist at the same time.

It's her own fault, so while she will get a pile on that letter was just a stupid racist thing for her to write. Yes she apologised but FGS, people will be disgusted.

Socialdistancechampion · 24/04/2023 21:39

highfidelity · 24/04/2023 21:27

Yes, there is no hierarchy of racism or oppression.

But it is bewildering, shocking even how ignorant others are to what Jews have had to deal with since the beginning of time. And this ignorance is something many on this thread have demonstrated, and also Abbott herself when she minimised the persecution of Jews as being something lesser than what it is.

I whole heartedly agree. I still can't believe in this day and age people don't recognise the extent of persecution Jews have gone through in history. You can mention an incident and then a hundred other less well known events occured alongside in other nations. It's harrowing.

Ketzele · 24/04/2023 21:56

There are different forms of racism, and we don't have to pick our favourites.

We need more understanding of anti black racism, not just as prejudice against people looking different, but as a systematic building block of our nationhood. The Empire was built on black people's backs, over hundreds of years, and has deeply shaped our national identity and individual psyches too.

Anti semitism has an even longer history, and is also deeply embedded in our national psyche. England was the first country to expel all its Jews, and the history of antisemitism is not just about Nazis - though the Nazis have certainly allowed many non-Jews to believe that.

Both types of racism have unique histories - as do those of Irish people and Romani. They also have lots in common, because after all racism finds a victim rather than difference creating the racism. It is really distasteful to use one to downplay another.

And Diane Abbott is not stupid and knew exactly what she was doing.

And I have been on MN for coming up to two decades and the antisemitism on here still surprises me.

Ketzele · 24/04/2023 22:07

onirgellep · 23/04/2023 23:59

But the vast majority of Jewish people are white - there is a very small no of black Ethiopian Jews in Israel [less than 160k] out of a population of 6.3 million and an equally small diaspora worldwide

I've met quite a few Jewish people working and living in N London with blonde hair but wigs - don't remember any blue eyes. Maybe the blonde/blue eyed people live elsewhere

Most Israelis are of Arab origin and are physically similar to the surrounding countries. It simply isn't true that the vast majority of Jews are white (or wealthy, or particularly clever).

SnackSizeRaisin · 24/04/2023 22:08

noblegiraffe · 23/04/2023 13:07

She said that Jews experienced prejudice but then pointed out that they, unlike black people, weren't made to sit on the back of buses and were allowed to vote.

There was a quite recent attempt to exterminate them, but she didn't mention that.

In the UK I don't think there was any restriction on buses or voting for being either black or Jewish?

Her letter was ill judged as a minimum. I think she might be losing the plot. She herself gets hideous amounts of racist abuse - I guess her thinking is that a white Jewish person could blend in to some extent, if they want to, whereas for a black person there is no hiding your skin.

In the US things were and are much worse for black people and comparatively better for Jewish people. Not sure about Romany and Irish travellers. It seems she's got caught up in the US narrative a bit.

The comparison to red heads is bonkers.

I don't really see how it's antisemitic though? Unless it is seen as holocaust denial.

As a female cyclist in a northern city I sometimes feel a hint of that being the target that everyone loves to hate - some days I can't face it and walk instead, thankfully blending in with other non cyclists. I guess she's thinking along those lines.