Diane Abbott

[Flowerly]

To say that Diane Abbott is doing her best to help the Labour Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

Hideous antisemitism seemingly not gone away at all and add that to the horrendous misogyny in the Labour Party I wonder at this point why ANYONE would vote for them.

AIBU?

*lived not lives

Racism isn't an either or situation. Just because one party has experienced it one way doesn't mean others don't experience it in other ways.

It's become fashionable to insult the British at the moment - specifically white English people. Whilst it is in no way comparable in terms of the historic and systemic oppression other groups have experienced there is an undercurrent of racism to it and, as with Jewish and Traveller racism, it's almost expected that the recipients just take it because they're white. It's still racially motivated.

Fwiw and to remove any doubt I'm not talking about the rightful holding to account that is happening in terms of colonialism I'm talking about the overt racism that is now taking place quite publicly across many platforms.

Stamer needs to kick the racist out.

It’s clear that those comments are not as bad as the worry of having your children strip searched by the police, or your son attacked by a racist mob. You can only compare it to say one is far more ‘minor’ than the other.

But the Irish have had that fear

What racism? Is this the equivalent of sexism against men, which mumsnet posters seem adamant doesn’t exist because ‘it doesn’t work that way around’? I’m white and English and have never experienced anything I would call racist, nor would I have the arrogance to compare it to Diane Abbott’s experiences if I had.

Not any more. Times change, thankfully. The shocking treatment of black people however has not changed.

That's hardly comparing like for like.

@Coffeeandbourbons

i think you are minimising some things I’m afraid.

We either call out all racism or no racism. There is no hierarchy of oppression.

@Socialdistancechampion

yes

You're either on the wind up, grossly misinformed or just a very unpleasant person. Either way, I'm not going to waste my time engaging with you any more and I'd politely suggest that others do likewise.

Just don’t reply then no need for theatrics.

I think there is, as in, I think some groups are for more likely to experience racism, and worse racism, than others. Can you really compare ‘racism against white people’ to racism against black people? And pretend they’re equally as damaging? Really?

However, the real problem is the focus on differences rather than what we have in common.

I still don’t understand how this happened but I wonder if it was created by racists who didn’t want to be seen as similar to others. When that happens we see things entirely as a white phenomenon ( white flight, etc.) whilst failing to recognise the dreams, desires, ambitions and value system of others - racism at its finest.

Well you would. I’ve said before, any kind of ‘shades of grey’ or context/perspective is just called ‘minimising’ now, by people for whom those things are inconvenient.

So we can dismiss anything that “doesn’t happen anymore” despite its long lasting effects on the person and the race that person comes from?

I have to assume you’re trolling at this point

Definitely trolling, not even being consistent in their own argument.

No, I’m not, although it’s predictable that at this point any disagreement (even slight) with a doctrinal viewpoint is seen as ‘trolling’. That’s the level of disbelief that someone can think differently these days - ‘they must be trolling’ 🙄 I mean why even use a discussion forum if things are so clear cut to you?

And it means we can state it is not a problem in the way other things are problems. I’m not going to apologise for not thinking ‘racism against people of Irish descent’ is anything like racism experience by black peoples or Middle Eastern people. If that’s ‘controversial’ then it shows how we’ve lost the plot to be honest.

Racism is racism.

The actions that come from racism are what causes the fear but the hatred based on skin colour is the same no matter what direction it comes from or what direction it is pointed to.

Or would you prefer it if some racism is left unchallenged until it escalates?

If uncomfortable truths aren't discussed openly it leads to bubbling resentment which only serves to escalate the situation. If you don't acknowledge things are happening you'll run the risk of aggravating racial tensions even further. It's also pretty patronising to say because someone has more melanin in their skin they're not capable of hateful acts. Every human being of every creed and colour is capable of hate.

It really wasn't that long ago that multiple Irish people were wrongly imprisoned in this country - for a duration of 17 years in one instance, 14 in another - simply for being Irish and the need for scapegoats. They had (wrongful) confessions literally tortured out of them.

Downplaying Irish fears of racism is gross.

@Coffeeandbourbons

what is your objective though? Is it to score points on who is most disadvantaged or is it to remove racism and it’s impact on people?

Because they both require very different strategies and in order to achieve the latter we need to treat racism at its source - the belief some people are better than others based on arbitrary factors.

The only way to get this happening is to get everyone on board and minimising other peoples perspective ( exactly what you have done) simply distorts the argument and leads us down these paths where we get caught up in the detail rather than seeing the whole picture.

I had written earlier a lengthy post about a conversation I had recently with a professional woman who spent the whole time criticising Irish travellers - I had to walk away as I knew the other person in the conversation had traveller heritage and didn’t know what to say.

It is invisible largely as people in those communities don’t talk about it so much and you don’t hear about it in the media.

I could go on but so many things but I suspect your mind is made up - from your perspective you will see things a certain way but move slightly to a more objective, less personal perspective and you can start to find other ways of seeing things.

I am both horrified and sorry that this thread has flushed out so much antisemitism on MN

So am I, though sadly not suprised when we consider the tumbleweed on most threads purely about the persecution of jews as opposed to this one, where the footfall's ballooned because a black woman's involved

As PPs have pointed out HQ do very little about antisemitism on here, but then they're also part of the metropolitan chatterati seized by the endless tropes about Palestine. Unfortunately balanced facts don't tend to be welcomed among such groups because they're just too wedded to the ideology, and so the antisemitism continues

DA has let herself and her party down here, seeking to downgrade racism experienced by other ethnicities doesn't help the anti-black racism fight. And at a time where KS is trying to eliminate the antiisemetic perception of the labour party and make it electable.

But urgh, I do feel that there is a certain glee from some commentators at seeing an opportunity to legitimately attack her.

The main point for Labour is that she is a liability because she seems so darn thick. This is by no means the first time she has mucked up. Lucky for her she’s in that safe seat.

Of course fight racism, but to do so by being racist to another historically targeted group? Er….

And as for the apology! It was a “first draft” - Well, you still wrote it though!