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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Diane Abbott

894 replies

Flowerly · 23/04/2023 12:02

To say that Diane Abbott is doing her best to help the Labour Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

Hideous antisemitism seemingly not gone away at all and add that to the horrendous misogyny in the Labour Party I wonder at this point why ANYONE would vote for them.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
Alexandra2001 · 23/04/2023 23:15

Socialdistancechampion · 23/04/2023 17:15

Stop making excuses based on age. No one is forgiving of the racist old gits down the pub because "oh they could have some degenerative disease setting in"

People, quite rightly, pulled up those doing the "oh he's old it's probably dementia" with the Dalai Lama recently.

You can't blame her age when she has form for shooting her mouth off

Show quote history

Indeed she has, are you capable of wondering why? go back 10 or 15 years and she wasn't..... but you do sound like the people i mentioned.

As i said earlier, she should be kicked out of the Labour party.

MedievalMadness · 23/04/2023 23:22

I think some people are obviously able to pass so don’t attract the attention of nutters so easily etc but as a brown woman the idea that those groups don’t experience racism but are experiencing “prejudice” is a bit nauseating to me. I dislike this whole racism is about power structures thing so whole groups can’t experience it, it minimises the very real and personal experiences of racism people experience. I think it also creates hierarchies of racism between minority groups.

I totally agree. I don’t hold with this hierarchy of racism between minority groups either. All racism, all persecution, all prejudice is utterly abhorrent and indefensible which is why I never let any racism I see or hear go unchallenged . We are all in this together whether we are black, brown, Jewish, Muslim, Irish, Travellers, Chinese or any other minority. I feel very protective of anyone who is treated differently because of their race or religion. None of us have an easy time of it.

suburbophobe · 23/04/2023 23:26

I expect black and Asian people are more likely to experience certain common forms of racism (ie being subjected to remarks or being treated differently) than are Jewish people, as the aforementioned groups are simply more visibly different from the white majority population.

You are assuming that all Jewish people are white. You are wrong. In Israel they range from blue-eyed blond-haired to black (from Ethiopia) and everything in between.

Frankly, when I read the news about Dianne Abbot today I seriously thought she'd lost her marbles.

SpeedSnap · 23/04/2023 23:35

Also the Muslims in China are going through a tough time.

You never hear anything about either group from Labour.

MedievalMadness · 23/04/2023 23:40

suburbophobe . I agree. Within my own family there are those of us with monolids that look Chinese. Some of us have thick dark curly hair and olive skin. Some have dark straight hair and green eyes. There are a few redheads with fair skin and some have more Eastern European features. I can only trace our family tree back to Lithuania and Belarus and my dna test showed 100% European Jewish but there are family members that do not look European at all. I’ve no idea where some parts of the family originated from. We are all Orthodox Jews but lots of different features.

Ortiguilla · 23/04/2023 23:40

highfidelity · 23/04/2023 21:29

Solidarity with you and am so angry for what you have to put up with.

Like you, I'm 100% European Jewish. I am a cultural and ethnic Jew, rather than a religious one. That said, these past few years I have taken more of an interest and started to practise, in part I think because I feel I have to given the oppression and persecution Jews have faced, and still face. Now, when I fill in forms, I no longer state I am white British. The number of Jews in the UK is less than half of one percent. I want to be counted.

At school, the most bullying antisemites I encountered were the history teachers. One even refused to teach the Holocaust. As I missed several classes at the beginning of the school year due to Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, I was already marked out and othered at the start. Over the past two decades, I have been spat at, sent revolting emails from strangers when I did OLD telling me I should have been gassed. I even had an-ex close friend who is a huge Corbyn/Momentum supporter tell me I am ignorant about antisemitism. He is not Jewish. Being told I don't understand antisemitism is a theme among those whom are not Jewish.

I live in London and have done all my life. Depsite being one of the most cultured, urban and cosmopolitan cities in the world, the antisemitism is getting worse every year. This thread is not even half of what we have to put up with.

Show quote history

My experience is very similar to yours. I'm 100% genetically Jewish, a born and bred Londoner, 3rd generation, not really practising, married 'out'.

I've had a lifetime of low level antisemitism, but when i was younger it really seemed like it was a thing of the past in terms of mainstream discourse.

The last 10 years or so have disabused me of that belief forever. I'll never feel fully safe here again.

The shit I've heard, face to face and online, from Corbyn supporters over the past few years - and from more stereotypical right wing racists too. It has changed things forever for me.

Ortiguilla · 23/04/2023 23:45

Ortiguilla · 23/04/2023 23:40

My experience is very similar to yours. I'm 100% genetically Jewish, a born and bred Londoner, 3rd generation, not really practising, married 'out'.

I've had a lifetime of low level antisemitism, but when i was younger it really seemed like it was a thing of the past in terms of mainstream discourse.

The last 10 years or so have disabused me of that belief forever. I'll never feel fully safe here again.

The shit I've heard, face to face and online, from Corbyn supporters over the past few years - and from more stereotypical right wing racists too. It has changed things forever for me.

Show quote history

P.s. I haven't read the whole thread but I see the latest posts are about being 'visibly' Jewish.

I don't do anything at all to deliberately mark myself as Jewish. There's nothing in my clothes or accessories that would 'give me away'. I don't wear a chai or a magen David or shave my head.

But I have never, ever passed as 'really English'.I have been asked far more times than I can count where I am from - yeah but where are you really from? Where are your parents from?

Most recently was within the past month.

I look a lot like Amy Winehouse (as an easy reference point), maybe a bit darker, and I am ALWAYS clocked as 'not quite white' in some way. I'm not imagining this. It's based on things people have said to me my whole life.

MedievalMadness · 23/04/2023 23:46

SpeedSnap. It’s true that so much racism is going on in so many places with next to no coverage. Sudan, Yemen, China - the dire atrocities going on there only ger prominence when things reach crisis point and are soon shunted down the priority list again. So many people of so many beliefs, races, colours. I don’t want a scale of who gets it worse. So many of us are experiencing far too much racism far too often.

Ortiguilla · 23/04/2023 23:52

BlueAndGreen89 · 23/04/2023 22:29

Haven’t read the full thread but my 2 cents is;

  1. Her comments are offensive and completely staggering, considering the position of power she holds. This is obvious and goes without saying.
  2. I’m also so annoyed. I had just wrapped my head around the fact that I was going to have to vote Labour next time (not voting Tory because they hate teachers, have voted Green 3 times but it feels like a wasted vote) and now this. She’s making it so hard to vote Labour.

I feel like this might have been why she did it. So many people have said similar to me today. I think she/ the Observer might have done it in order to fuck over KS at the elections.

I cannot express how much I hate my life and my family's lives and history being used to score points off political opponents like this.

Thank you for your point 1. You are obviously right. As you can see by this thread though,unfortunately it no longer 'goes without saying' 😟

MedievalMadness · 23/04/2023 23:53

P.s. I haven't read the whole thread but I see the latest posts are about being 'visibly' Jewish.

I don't do anything at all to deliberately mark myself as Jewish. There's nothing in my clothes or accessories that would 'give me away'. I don't wear a chai or a magen David or shave my head.

But I have never, ever passed as 'really English'.I have been asked far more times than I can count where I am from - yeah but where are you really from? Where are your parents from?

Most recently was within the past month.

I look a lot like Amy Winehouse (as an easy reference point), maybe a bit darker, and I am ALWAYS clocked as 'not quite white' in some way. I'm not imagining this. It's based on things people have said to me my whole life

apart from looking like Amy Winehouse, I could have written your thread, Ortiguilla. No one I meet ever thinks I’m English. Mainly because I don’t look it. I sound Jewish, I am very dark haired, I have epicanthal folds and barely visible eyelids, I have green eyes and very fair skin. I look a mix of all sorts of different ethnicities.

anotherside · 23/04/2023 23:56

@Coffeeandbourbons

There are no ‘shades of grey’ allowed anymore. Either you say something is the WORST EVER or you’re ‘minimising’ it

Exactly. Spot on. And of course this one size fits all approach does nothing to actually solve racism/prejudice/social injustice in its various forms, rather it effectively just brushes it under the carpet.

onirgellep · 23/04/2023 23:59

suburbophobe · 23/04/2023 23:26

I expect black and Asian people are more likely to experience certain common forms of racism (ie being subjected to remarks or being treated differently) than are Jewish people, as the aforementioned groups are simply more visibly different from the white majority population.

You are assuming that all Jewish people are white. You are wrong. In Israel they range from blue-eyed blond-haired to black (from Ethiopia) and everything in between.

Frankly, when I read the news about Dianne Abbot today I seriously thought she'd lost her marbles.

But the vast majority of Jewish people are white - there is a very small no of black Ethiopian Jews in Israel [less than 160k] out of a population of 6.3 million and an equally small diaspora worldwide

I've met quite a few Jewish people working and living in N London with blonde hair but wigs - don't remember any blue eyes. Maybe the blonde/blue eyed people live elsewhere

anotherside · 24/04/2023 00:01

*any way worse than

suburbophobe · 24/04/2023 00:03

I went to the Jewish Museum in Vienna in 2020... I was shocked and saddened that they needed a security guard on the door..

I went to the one in Cape Town. You have to show your passport, the info gets noted down. You also have to go through a double turn-style type of gate.
Sad indeed.

suburbophobe · 24/04/2023 00:06

@onirgellep

Maybe the blonde/blue eyed people live elsewhere

There was one on the kibbutz when I was there in the 70's. Born and bred.

Ortiguilla · 24/04/2023 00:07

onirgellep · 23/04/2023 23:59

But the vast majority of Jewish people are white - there is a very small no of black Ethiopian Jews in Israel [less than 160k] out of a population of 6.3 million and an equally small diaspora worldwide

I've met quite a few Jewish people working and living in N London with blonde hair but wigs - don't remember any blue eyes. Maybe the blonde/blue eyed people live elsewhere

Show quote history

You are, literally, saying that everyone is either black or white. It doesn't work like that.

My immediate family and I are all pretty dark. Various dna tests have put me somewhere between 89-99 percent Jewish with bits of Italian, Greek, Persian and Turkish mixed in. My dad, who is really dark, was always stopped and searched when we travelled abroad in the 80s/90s. He was racially abused by people who thought he was Pakistani/South Asian a few times.

It is obvious to me that people don't see me as 'white british'. It's often, though not always, other non-white people who ask me where I'm from. Often Turkish, Iranian, Greek or even Indian people who want to know if I'm 'one of them'.

I became more aware of this when i got together with my husband, who is 100% Welshand looks unmistakably white British. He is treated very differently.

Arabs, Greeks, turks, Iranians, etc. - none of these people are Black. None of them are simplistically White either. Most Jews fall into the same category. We do not get treated the same way as 'white british' people.

Above all, I really fucking hate that we are apparently fair game for any politician who wants to score some points. It was the same way in the 12th c when we were kicked out of Britain, in the 14th c with the Black death, in the Spanish inquisition, the pogroms, the Holocaust. I wish we could be allowed to live in peace

onirgellep · 24/04/2023 00:09

suburbophobe · 24/04/2023 00:06

@onirgellep

Maybe the blonde/blue eyed people live elsewhere

There was one on the kibbutz when I was there in the 70's. Born and bred.

So there's at least one then!

suburbophobe · 24/04/2023 00:17

So there's at least one then!

Well I'm sure he's got family....

He was just one of the young guys that hung out with us. Nowadays it has a population of about 1000 people, so you don't get to meet everyone.....

MedievalMadness · 24/04/2023 00:19

DD has a school friend with blond hair, fair skin and blue eyes. She has two sisters with the same colouring My friend is a redhead with blue eyes. My partner has bright blue eyes and before he lost his hair it was black and very curly. Next door neighbour two kids with blue eyes - one with red hair, one with brown. All are Orthodox Jewish.

Equalitea · 24/04/2023 00:42

I understand why some less educated people don’t think that Jews are a race. However Dianne Abbot should know better, particularly with the targeting she has endured.
There is a stigma and lack of education around anything Jewish in the U.K. I think a lot of Jews also aren’t always keen to say that we are Jews, so it’s quite difficult for such a small minority to educate people when not all are willing to even advertise that they’re Jewish.

To be a Jew you can be genetically Jewish and or Jewish by religion. I could be born Jewish via my inherited genetics (which shows on dna testing eg Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi) although in judaism it is the Jewish status of the mother that determines a child being born a Jew. I could have converted to Judaism and have no genetic links. I may be black (mostly Ethiopian Jews) or white (mostly ‘passing’ Ashkenazi Jews).

I think that a lot of people identify or understand racism with skin colour, rather than actual race.

If you think that you aren’t racist or that you aren’t anti semetic have a look at David Baddiel book ‘Jews don’t count’. It’s available on audiobook format too if you aren’t a reader, it’s worthwhile.

Equalitea · 24/04/2023 00:45

Ortiguilla · 24/04/2023 00:07

You are, literally, saying that everyone is either black or white. It doesn't work like that.

My immediate family and I are all pretty dark. Various dna tests have put me somewhere between 89-99 percent Jewish with bits of Italian, Greek, Persian and Turkish mixed in. My dad, who is really dark, was always stopped and searched when we travelled abroad in the 80s/90s. He was racially abused by people who thought he was Pakistani/South Asian a few times.

It is obvious to me that people don't see me as 'white british'. It's often, though not always, other non-white people who ask me where I'm from. Often Turkish, Iranian, Greek or even Indian people who want to know if I'm 'one of them'.

I became more aware of this when i got together with my husband, who is 100% Welshand looks unmistakably white British. He is treated very differently.

Arabs, Greeks, turks, Iranians, etc. - none of these people are Black. None of them are simplistically White either. Most Jews fall into the same category. We do not get treated the same way as 'white british' people.

Above all, I really fucking hate that we are apparently fair game for any politician who wants to score some points. It was the same way in the 12th c when we were kicked out of Britain, in the 14th c with the Black death, in the Spanish inquisition, the pogroms, the Holocaust. I wish we could be allowed to live in peace

Show quote history

I know quite a few people who have done dna tests and they have come back with mostly Jewish but a little Cypriot, Greek, Turkish.
I think I might ask for a test for my birthday this year!

Original poster
Flowerly · 24/04/2023 07:31

I am both horrified and sorry that this thread has flushed out so much antisemitism on MN. I knew that it was widespread and I know that there are plenty of Momentum types on MN but this...shocking, depressing, rage inducing.

I still do not understand fully why the Left hates Jewish people so much but it is truly a shameful state of affairs and Starmer needs to work MUCH harder to flush this toxicity out of the party that I felt so at home in in the 1990s. Abbott cannot be the last one - we all know that.

OP posts:
SpringTastic · 24/04/2023 07:44

It it really anti Semitic to say that people who look white are likely not to have experienced the level of racism black people have?

Yes there are some Jewish people who look brown. But in the main they look white. In the UK.

It's not the same thing. There is nuance.

DA has apologised and lost the whip.
What more should happen?

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