That most people don't realise quite how awful the impact of overturning Roe v Wade is in the US?

[Echobelly]

Obviously, most people know that forced birth in itself is an awful thing, but the more I learn about effects, the more horrifying it is. On top of the individual impact there is:

• A lot of anti abortion states also put miscarriages under investigation with the possibility of prosecution https://www.npr.org/2022/07/03/1109015302/abortion-prosecuting-pregnancy-loss
• This means this Ob-Gyns are walking out of forced birth states as they are open to prosecution if anything goes wrong with a pregnancy, and if remaining are reluctant to be involved at all in the first 12 weeks (and mums are reluctant to get care in case they miscarry and are prosecuted), and so there is less cover for any births, endangering all mums https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/07/health/maternity-units-closing/index.html
• Doctors can't provide care to mothers who are experiencing pregnancy complications that are endangering her life, or are forced to wait until the mother is guaranteed to die imminently if they don't intervene https://www.ft.com/content/68dd2cc2-828d-4d00-8ccf-176dbb56d25f
• Adoption and fostering agencies are already overwhelmed
• Most children in US are taking into care for neglect which often translates as 'poor parents' (especially if black or indigenous) - so if a mum is forced to give birth even though she can't afford a child/another child, there is a strong chance she'll have the child taken from her later https://twitter.com/womensmediacntr/status/1649414182998089732

And it goes on...

@DogandMog

All sounds a bit victorian to me.

Although I'm with you on the men taking responsibility front.

Maybe we should just give all men vasectomies at puberty

@Whatt What would you suggest then? If a woman is forced to keep an unwanted pregnancy because abortion is not an option, it is a forced birth. The woman is forced to have the baby.

Changing the language to make it more palatable (to, presumably those that are against abortion and support forced birthing) does not change the fact that women are being forced.

Sorry but I don't understand this. Could you please explain a little?

I am wondering if something like this will happen:

Someone like Emma Barrett (daughter of ACB) marries, gets pregnant, has an ectopic... can't get a safe pregnancy termination and dies (or nearly dies). I just have a nagging feeling that it's going to take some kind of terrible avoidable very public tragedy happening to "their own" for the conservative Republicans to row back on strict abortion rules and "leave it to the states" attitudes.

The article does not talk about things that are actually happening. It talks, yet again, about hypothetical or projected increases in infants being given up for adoption, not something that is actually happen. The experiences of other countries where abortion was banned or restricted in the past suggest this will indeed not happen. Most women (and men) will just get tighter on birth control, cancelling out any additional number of unintended births.

I am against banning abortion, but if you want to make a convincing case, you need to make sensible arguments, not “OMG, foster services are going to be overwhelmed with a torrent of unwanted babies!!” Because if you make arguments like that, then when (inevitably) the torrent of unwanted babies fails to materialize, you will just look silly, and will further convince the anti abortion people that pro-choice people are ninnies who don’t know what they are talking about.

@DogandMog well, I'm strongly of the view that people are allowed to change their minds and shouldn't be punished for doing so, particularly when the punishment involves physical pain, danger and huge life changes. I was pro choice until I had a child, and after that I was REALLY pro choice.

I had a late term TFMR in hospital under the guidance and care of doctors and midwives. My baby was born living so we had to have an inquest in court as to why he'd died. It was a horrific cherry on top of a horrendous experience.

It is definitely an exercise in controlling women.

But given the way the US treats healthcare, as a business with huge costs incurred, part of me wonders, and worries, if banning termination (specifically in the case of medical problems) is actually creating more business. Babies born needing both immediate and expensive care until they die. And with the NHS being slowly taken apart here, if the same would happen.

Also worth bearing in mind that giving birth in the US is almost three times more dangerous than in the UK.

For what it's worth, though, for all the people saying that men should take more responsibility...men largely very much want the non-permanent (or semi-permanent) contraceptive options that are available to women. The problem is that a male contraceptive pill has a much higher bar to get over in terms of safety/side-effects, for very annoying (but medically logical, even if not socially logical) reasons, and none of them have reached that level yet.

The way it was explained to me by a medical researcher who worked on one such pill is...basically being pregnant is a potentially life-threatening condition for a woman, so side-effects are evaluated in that context - a certain level of occurrence is acceptable relative to the medical risks of being pregnant. That's not the case for men, so any side-effects would make the patient's medical status objectively worse even if they occur at the same level as for women's contraceptive medication - and, based on the oath that doctors take, it can't be approved or prescribed at that level because they can only prescribe medication in the context of the patient themselves rather than their sexual partners.

It's both bonkers and logical at the same time, which is incredibly annoying for all concerned.

Indeed,it's just crazy ,and they can't see the hypocrisy ,it's a totally different culture .

America is a very different country to the UK. A lot of people there are religious, and a lot of people who are fairly liberal people in other respects, are anti-abortion. I have family there and they are nice people but it's clear when speaking to them about certain subjects, just how different they are. America is not the UK with a different accent. It's a completely different world of people with a completely different mindset.

In some states abortion is legal at any stage of pregnancy which I think is completely wrong and gave the anti-abortionists something to latch onto.

America is an utter backwater on the decline.

How any thinking person can vote Republican is beyond me.

But not only do vast swathes of Americans vote Republican, but they stand a chance of winning the next election. 🤯

Americans will say, well, that’s because of gerrymandering and voter suppression! Most people don’t really support them. Oh, great, well, that’s OK then.

It’s a banana republic that doesn’t even function as a democracy (leader of the free world? They wish 🙄) and I would say its decline can’t come fast enough.

But that of course leaves a vast gaping hole where a decent, genuine, free-thinking democracy used to exist to stand against the rogue nations of the world.

It is scary times we live in.

I completely agree with you. It is not civilised at all.

Poor maternity rights, poor worker rights in general. Still has the death penalty .Massive inequality, no free at the point of access healthcare. Lobbyists spending obscene amounts of money to keep politicians in their pockets. Crumbling infrastructure. Extremely poor arms control leading to huge numbers of gun deaths. People driving round in massive gas guzzling trucks or enormous RVs. Real ignorance of environmental issues. Huge use of aircon, but poorly built and insulated buildings. Florida has the fastest population growth in the US and everyone moving there will need aircon for a big portion of the year for example. A totally unelected panel of judges dictating the law of what is supposedly a democracy.

For Christ sakes it's really common to still get food served to you in polystyrene receptacles. When did you last get a polystyrene cup or plate in the UK. We don't even have plastic straws these days.

And to top it all no reproductive rights for women.

It makes me laugh, the American dream. So many people duped into believing that hard work will make them rich and free. The super rich already own and control America.

America is a backward country, the less of their culture and politics we import here the better. And it is far from free especially for women.

The problem is that a male contraceptive pill has a much higher bar to get over in terms of safety/side-effects, for very annoying (but medically logical, even if not socially logical) reasons, and none of them have reached that level yet.

Besides the point, would you trust men to take the pill?

I think we need to stop caring about America so much. There are plenty of other countries in the world, why we give so much attention to the USA is beyond me.

I think we need to stop caring about America so much. There are plenty of other countries in the world, why we give so much attention to the USA is beyond me.

Shit happening in America tends to overspill worldwide.

It wouldn't if the world stopped caring about America so much. Leave them to it.

I had emergency surgery for a tubal ectopic last year. I've never been so grateful to live in a country where doctors didn't pause before that surgery to consider the law or whether they were at risk of prosecution for proceeding. I would have died without that speedy surgery. I'm 34 years old and it was my first baby. That baby was very much loved and very much wanted but sadly was never viable.

It really angers me to think of women in my situation being left until their condition is life threatening before doctors will act.

FCDO travel advice should flag countries where women of childbearing age should know may deny them life saving care.

One issue since Roe v Wade was overturned is methotrexate. Methotrexate is used to medically treat some ectopic pregnancies. It is also a very common drug for people with autoimmune arthritis, like me (I don't take due to TTC) but I know women with my condition in the US of childbearing age who can no longer access their medication, in case of accidental pregnancy terminated by their drug. Madness. Absolute madness.

In today's climate? Yes, because while there's the health-related issues that women encounter, the risk to men who don't want kids is financial and long-term - I'd certainly view it as sensible self-preservation against the risk of contraceptive sabotage. Granted, it's not a 50%-of-the-time problem, but neither is it negligible - I know a number of people who've been forced into having kids through women lying about taking the pill or breaking a condom, and I've seen at least a few threads on here about women planning it. A male contraceptive pill would provide more certainty.

Ultimately, I see contraception as something both parties need to be paying attention to and responsible for. Relying on the other to be doing it properly is not a safe way forward for anyone in this world where folk of all stripes have shown that they can't necessarily be trusted.

A male contraceptive pill would provide more certainty

for the man…

obviously the women would need to still take some sort of evasive action

Absolutely - I was only talking about the male risk there. That's why I followed it up with the (controversial!) idea that both parties need to be responsible, not just "the man needs to take responsibility" or "women need to sort their shit out".

When both parties are responsible, there is almost no risk of an unwanted pregnancy occurring (or, at least, the risk is reduced as much as it possibly can be).

Well yes

i was agreeing with you…just very badly obviously 😀

Aha! Autistic here. Not always good at picking up the subtext, so you can safely blame me for that one :D

I know a number of people who've been forced into having kids through women lying about taking the pill or breaking a condom, and I've seen at least a few threads on here about women planning it. A male contraceptive pill would provide more certainty.

Men intentionally stealth, break condoms, or plain refuse to wear them because they don't enjoy putting them on.
As for pills, even for life threatening conditions men are massively careless taking their meds.
Male contraceptive pill would appeal for only a very small percentage of men.

What you're talking about there (stealthing) is a vanishingly small percentage of men, just like the number of women who do it to get pregnant is also vanishingly small relative to the overall population. In fact, most are terrified of the prospect of an accidental pregnancy landing them with child support for the next 18 years for a kid they'll never see.

Granted, it's still a risk though, which is kind of my point.

But, like I said, I'm saying that both parties need to take responsibility. The glib "Men can't be trusted to do anything right" might be common wisdom on MN, but in the real world...it's not actually true, and not even having that option in the first place makes things worse.

I don’t think stealthing is rare or that young men want to wear condoms

my daughter has been on a number of dates with young men and has with a few of them expressed a desire to have a baby

A stupid amount of young men have still wanted to have sex with her without a condom

i feel like ringing their mums to be honest