That most people don't realise quite how awful the impact of overturning Roe v Wade is in the US?

[Echobelly]

Obviously, most people know that forced birth in itself is an awful thing, but the more I learn about effects, the more horrifying it is. On top of the individual impact there is:

• A lot of anti abortion states also put miscarriages under investigation with the possibility of prosecution https://www.npr.org/2022/07/03/1109015302/abortion-prosecuting-pregnancy-loss
• This means this Ob-Gyns are walking out of forced birth states as they are open to prosecution if anything goes wrong with a pregnancy, and if remaining are reluctant to be involved at all in the first 12 weeks (and mums are reluctant to get care in case they miscarry and are prosecuted), and so there is less cover for any births, endangering all mums https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/07/health/maternity-units-closing/index.html
• Doctors can't provide care to mothers who are experiencing pregnancy complications that are endangering her life, or are forced to wait until the mother is guaranteed to die imminently if they don't intervene https://www.ft.com/content/68dd2cc2-828d-4d00-8ccf-176dbb56d25f
• Adoption and fostering agencies are already overwhelmed
• Most children in US are taking into care for neglect which often translates as 'poor parents' (especially if black or indigenous) - so if a mum is forced to give birth even though she can't afford a child/another child, there is a strong chance she'll have the child taken from her later https://twitter.com/womensmediacntr/status/1649414182998089732

And it goes on...

The liberal (American politics) podcasts are slightly gleeful tbh at how this is blowing up in Republicans faces (election chances), tbh. That won't do anything about changing Supreme Court, but you have to find wins where you can, I suppose.

There is a lot of reporting and it was a major reason for the Republicans performing poorly in the mid term elections.

But for me the issue we need to face here in the UK and particularly on MN is the insidious behaviour of the pro-life lobby here. I am often appalled at the some of sly comments on MN when abortion and unwanted pregnancy is discussed.

I would much rather ask people on here to think about their language when discussing pregnancy than lament a situation in another country. I am not saying it is all people but many posters use pro life language. Some of it unwittingly but some I am sure is deliberate.

An emergency c section is the treatment here too for a maternal cardiac arrest in later pregnancy. Nothing to do with putting the baby first - it’s the only way either or both have chance to survive.

@Kokeshi123 this article I mention at the end of my list https://womensmediacenter.com/news-features/the-consequences-of-forced-birth also covers how understaffed adoption and fostering services are; it does say that, as I would expect, relatively few forced births are projected to result in babies being given up for adoption, but even so it will be enough to create a serious issue.

There's also the issue that babies aren't just generally delivered into adopted parents arms, there's protocol to get through. I can't find the original video, but reporter Jessica Valenti, who has been focusing on all the resulting issues from overturning Roe, was saying that some states are saying they will 'Streamline adoptions', which is generally shorthand for fewer safeguards for adopted children.

I think most people do know this is all bad, but I'm not sure that many are really aware of all the side effects. It's not even safe in pro-choice states, as it will mean increased demand for services in them for women fleeing other states, which will have an impact on birth and pregnancy care, smear tests etc for all women.

@Alaimo - I think we do need to be vigilant. I remain optimistic it wouldn't happen here as we just don't have the strong basis of fanatical christianity for them to build on, but we shouldn't let our guard down. I think people aligning on a single issue with people whose politics they wouldn't normally share should check very carefully that group's stance abortion, as this is one of the ways they are getting in the back door.

@lljkk and @LemonTT - it is good it hasn't served the GOP well, and there were suprises such as Kansas voting to keep abortion. I think it is getting through to some people that this endangers their life or the lives of the women in their life. If Billy Bob the farmer realises that his children would have been left without a mother if the pregnancy complications with their 5th baby couldn't have been treated by doctors, that might change feelings.

If I were offered a job in a pro-life state, I don't see how I could take it - I simply couldn't take the risk of possibly getting pregnant but being refused termination even if it was very dangerous for me.

One of the other points to make about abortion here in the UK and the fragility of our right to it is that every time some Christian-backed legal group takes on a case fighting through the courts for some terminally ill or brain-dead child to remain on life support against medical advice (Charlie Gard, Alfie Evans, Archie Battersbee etc), they don’t really give a shit about the child in the case. Their agenda is to bring in the abolition of abortion by the back door, by establishing a “life = heartbeat” law which would make abortion illegal beyond the earliest stage a foetal heartbeat can be detected.

I do worry slightly that if the Tories get in again (sadly possible) they are going to swing further and further to the reactionary right to the point they might start entertaining abortion curbs to appeal to die-hard elderly voters who might think that young women these days need 'teaching a lesson about responsibility' (because of course, men have nothing to do with it).

I think it's sadly funny that if, in America, someone said 'OK, if we're going to ban abortion, if the father's not in the picture there should be a paternity test and fathers will have to pay for the child's upbringing' everyone would be up in arms going 'oooh no, but you'll get slatternly women entrapping men so they can get money!' (regardless of the fact that no one can 'make money' from having a child). Everything proves they don't give a toss about these children once they are born.

In one state (again can't remember which) a representative is trying to put in laws that the state has to support children that mums were forced to have against their will and, I think pay for their education. Doubt that will get anywhere, though. I'll see if I can find the story again...

That's your mistake. The US is not a civilised country - it's more akin to the Middle East, with added money and technology.

They’re not interested in providing maternity leave, child benefits, free contraception or anything similar. It’s all about punishing and controlling women

It’s horrifying that this is happening in 2023 in a so-called civilised country. I don’t understand the thought process at all, of course these forced births are going to result in more children in care, overwhelming local authorities and agencies. The same people who are anti abortion will no doubt be the ones making the most noise about how much this is costing them through taxes.

And women will die, not that pro forced birthers care.

Thank you for this

i didn’t know any of it

If anyone wants to contribute financially then, of all places, First Unitarian Church of Dallas helps women seeking abortion. They actually supported Roe in Roe v Wade.

Disclaimer the only thing I know about this church is what is in the links and that I contacted the church when RvW was overturned to say I was glad they existed, I got a very nice couple of replies.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61849137

https://www.weadallas.org/benefits-clothes-encounters/

I don't vote but I guess YABU sort of because yes a lot of people do know.

Just agreeing with these points -

• Democrats didn't get abortion into proper law because it is a fundraiser and vote getter to keep the issue 'live'
• Republicans same
• Neither demonstrates true care for women. I believe that Hillary Clinton might eventually have actually done something about it but that's probably one of the reasons she lost - she is willing to permanently alienate people for things she cares about, good and bad from my perspective
• Blue state abortion law is MUCH more robust and more free than UK abortion access.

The reason abortion is so far not a huge political issue in the UK is cultural.It's not about feminism exactly. The upper and upper middle class in the UK are historically eugenicists, both on the very old fashioned concern with 'good breeding' and in the 20th century with 'scientific' eugenics. I'm not saying abortion is eugenics, but eugenicists are usually fine with abortion. Also Catholics are seen as universally 'prolife' (in reality it's obviously much more complex than that) and anti Catholic sectarian feeling is still very strong in the UK.

If all these things sound very old-fashioned and obsolete - you're right. All these cultural strands are dying away. A good thing in most circumstances. But it means the basis of our pragmatic and in reality woman-centred access to abortion is fragile. The law needs improving and consolidating, soon. Paging Stella Creasy....

I think it’s wrong to attribute this to the overturning of Roe v Wade. If anything the overturning of Roe might actually force US political culture to actually engage with the issue of abortion properly. The highly politicised, partisan approach to abortion policy is fairly unique to the US, which Roe v Wade contributed to. All kinds of extreme positions became normalised on the right. Republicans could say all kinds of crazy and unworkable things about abortion that appealed to the fringe anti-choice nutters, knowing full well that whilst Roe was still in force they’d never have to deliver on it, and that those with more moderate views on abortion didn’t have to worry about them doing what they said.

In the U.K. (apart from in Northern Ireland) there is no “right” to an abortion enshrined in law. And yet, access to abortion provision is good. In large swathes of the US accessing an abortion has been incredibly difficult for years, despite Roe v Wade being in place. Yes, things are reaching a crisis point now, but republicans are already having to reassess their position. They can’t keep saying stuff to appease the fringe anti-abortion nutters now. Moderates can’t just ignore what these people say about abortion because it actually matters now. I think in the longer term the parties positions on abortion will get closer together until hopefully it will cease to be a party political issue. In most of the world it isn’t.

I believe they will be able to correlate levels of poverty and crime with the overturning of Roe v Wade in years to come. The impact on society isn't fully known yet.

And racism, misogyny, fanatical christian religion and guns.

Most poverty from reduction in abortion access falls on minoritised women and their children. Republicans quite clearly find it acceptable for those people to be shot dead if they become visible at any time, so are unlikely to change their vote as a result.

It's awful.

I think most people are probably aware but are powerless to do anything kr they agree with it.

All because some white men think they and their made up god have more rights over a womans body than she does

Who needs feminism eh?

I would say those things are features of many Middle East regimes, hence the comparison.

Plus an obsession with treating healthcare as a luxury only for the affluent, the paranoid conviction that everybody else wants what you have, a police force that are effectively an independent militia and a criminal population that amounts to roughly one in 25 people.

Echobelly - little bit of ageism there. I have never, ever heard this view from an "elderly" person. And in the US pro-life views are often held by women of childbearing age.

A clear-headed debate is useful. Speculation and catastrophisation is not.

And anyone who is 80 now was young in the sixties. Free and easy sex and no access to proper contraception or abortion. This was the generation that fought for the changes to the laws that forced them and their friends into unwanted pregnancy and back street abortion. (I am not in my eighties by the way). Many of them despair at what they're seeing now.

The situation in the US is scary but it's part of a culture change everywhere. Women are under threat - we know that and have to fight it - but intolerance and division doesn't help.

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Totally agree I can't believe that this is acceptable in a developed world.

I do think it’s terrible, don’t get me wrong, but the US is a democracy, they can change this if they want to, it’s up to people there to fight for it and they have the freedom to do so. I am more concerned for women in countries where abortion is illegal but they have no chance to change it, places where women have no voice.

Exactly, they still have child marriage in some states.