To think the media over exaggerate trans women and refugees?

[SleepDreamThinkHuge]

I have noticed in the media when trans women and refugees do crimes it is highlighted to such an extent compared to if say men commit rapes. When it is a trans women raping someone it leads to "women being unsafe" and the funny thing is a lot of people doing this faux outrage and pretending they care about women is from some men. It is strange when you hear things like "as a father or mother I worry for my child's safety they are not safe." Ok so what about when most sexual attacks are committed by cis men? You never heard them protest about that.

It is the same with refugees you only hear the bad stories "oh he is gaining the system" "oh a lot of these refugees are rapists." There is no middle ground in both of these issues. Rape/sexual assault gaining the system is done by a minority of all people (black, Asian, White etc..) But when it is refugees or trans men doing crime it is highlighted to such as extent to which other groups that do the same crime e.g. white Brits is less highlighted and outrage is not as much.

‘Political agenda’ towards homogenisation! This is getting slightly bonkers. You could argue homogenisation in relation to any minority dataset to discredit and minimise the issue (eg asians over-performance in education and employment, high performing autism etc).

TheHoover · Today 20:05

@Helleofabore
Haha you would like to draw me into denying male physical advantage? Actually laughing now.

I infer from your answer that you don't deny male physical advantage.

‘Oh go on, please please say trans women have no physical advantage over women. Pleeeeease’

I thought you were engaging in a sensible discussion? Clearly I was wrong. I believe that males, and as a result transwomen have a physical advantage over women, and I can (I suspect) find evidence to support my belief. I'm happy to be educated if I am wrong, hence my questions. Rather than engaging in opening meaningful debate you seek to shut down the conversation by aiming to belittle and patronise me for asking questions you find difficult to answer.

Maybe you are afraid of the answers?

Ok so what about when most sexual attacks are committed by cis men?

Most sexual attacks are committed by men, regardless of whether they claim to have a 'gender identity' or not.

If ALL men stayed the fuck out of female refuges, the number of women being raped in those refuges would be zero. The most basic safeguarding.

When a subset of men demand access to female only spaces then those spaces become less safe to the actual women who those spaces are actually for.

What is the point of having single sex spaces, put in place for the safety, privacy and dignity of females when at their most vulnerable, if you then make them mixed sex to accommodate the feelings of some men?

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

No physical advantage at all. No, no, no.

No disadvantage at all, physically, emotionally or professionally, for the sex that has the potential to carry and birth the babies.

Caitlyn Jenner transitioned to Caitlyn once Bruce Jenners athletic career was over. After Bruce had fathered 2, I believe, children. Caitlyn has, AFAIK, no problem acknowledging that Bruce existed, he was successful and that Caitlyn's success is built on TOP of Bruce's achievements, not without them.

That would be crazy, to pretend that Bruce didn't exist and Caitlyn simply popped into existence and won Time's Woman of the Year award

Let's not pretend to be dumb, huh?

Just as aside about ‘forced teaming’, this has been a well known and used activist tactic.

In fact, just recently WPATH has written about strategies to achieve acceptance of people throughout the Western world. That ‘forced teaming’ is their second recommendation.

“The first step on the road back, in my opinion, will be to allow the public to hear the anguish and the stories of those in pain as a direct result of anti-trans legislation, difficult as this will be to watch-and to pin this pain upon those legislators and policy makers who have inflicted the agony. In my interview with CBS Evening News to be aired any day, I called it ‘legislative cruelty’. The moment we are in reminds me of San Francisco’s Harvey Milk and his plea to gay persons to come out. We need to be heard—trans persons, allies, parents, families, politicians, clergy-those who have been hurt and those who know us.”

“The second step on the road back will be to unite disparate causes in our fight against a common foe. An attack on trans care is an attack on women. It is an attack on black people, brown people, and Asian people. It is an attack on Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Sikh, and true Christian communities. It is an attack on diversity and all of the ideals that diversity holds. It is an attack on us all.”

(A Message from your WPATH President, Dr. Marci Bowers April 2023)

If anyone is interested here is a copy of the Denton’s report. Page 20 contains the suggestion of ‘Tie your campaign to more popular reform’ which also relates to forced teaming.

https://www.iglyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/IGLYO_v3-1.pdf

Within the best couple of years a US only version was released by a trans law group again suggesting spokespeople keep discussion of trans rights compared to other rights fights such as race and sexual orientation. I cannot find the links for that today, I am on my phone.

I guess if you are inclined to not evaluate activist discussion by searching for original source information and then evaluate the degree of emotional manipulation deployed (as per step one of the WPATH), you might accept that whole ‘just like the fight for LGB rights’ and the fight against racial discrimination without actually thinking about the veracity of what is said or how it fits together. That is where you notice posts that make assertions but lack any substantive discussion of why that poster fully believes that to be the case. Often using belittling or mocking language that shows prejudice rather than depth of understanding. Or you see manipulative tactics used.

Once you begin to realize that there has been a very deliberate strategy of manipulation emotionally and the tactics such as forced teaming and getting people into influential positions, it is not something you will forget.

Oh dear

formatting fail.

“The first step on the road back, in my opinion, will be to allow the public to hear the anguish and the stories of those in pain as a direct result of anti-trans legislation, difficult as this will be to watch-and to pin this pain upon those legislators and policy makers who have inflicted the agony. In my interview with CBS Evening News to be aired any day, I called it ‘legislative cruelty’. The moment we are in reminds me of San Francisco’s Harvey Milk and his plea to gay persons to come out. We need to be heard—trans persons, allies, parents, families, politicians, clergy-those who have been hurt and those who know us.”

Oh dear - just had a google and 90% of hits in relation to ‘forced teaming’ are used in gc arguments to reject and minimise transphobia and trans discrimination and in attempts to persuade others that there has been a complete divorce between trans rights and LGB rights . [shakes head slowly]. So just you trotting out the same old worn out practised arguments…..

That's interesting - my Google results are all about "The gift of fear" by Gavin de Becker and how criminals use it as a manipulation tactic

Maybe your Google history has affected your results

Well I could also have brought up the proper definition as defined by Gavin de Becker and how the phrase has been entirely twisted by the gc brigade but looks like you beat me to it.

And so far you have failed to actually address anything with any depth. It is great that you have continued to do the same.

So, you haven’t shown at all how your arguments work, you just keep doubling down that they do work.

What you seem to call ‘minimising’ and ‘dismissing’ transphobia is the feminist :

single sex spaces
-rejection that maintaining female single sex spaces is ‘transphobic’.

roles set aside for women where needed
-rejection that maintaining women’s roles for female people being ‘transphobic’,

male breastfeeding
-rejection of males feeding an infant a substance that lacks the nutritional value needed for infants to infants as being ‘transphobic’ rather than safeguarding vulnerable infants from potential abuse of malnutrition.

These are examples from the article you posted.

I really don’t think you are achieving the convincing argument you think you are.

I think the majority of people reading about those three issues will disagree with the position that they are transphobic positions. Yet, according to many extreme trans rights activists, that would be dismissing or minimising transphobia. (We know there are many trans people who don’t consider these positions to be transphobic. We know many trans people hold the same position on these issues as feminists do.)

Cis men? Who are you to say who is or is not a cis man? Psychic ability one of your skills OP?

The problem @Helleofabore is that you really, really are desperate to engage with me on the whole kitchen sink of gc / trans issues. You are doing this because you think I support the TRA viewpoint in relation to these issues but I don’t - I am a centrist.
My only point has ever been the minimisation of trans discrimination in the workplace / society and scepticism about this sizeable majority of alpha trans-female late transitioners which skew any data you have read that you cannot argue away otherwise.

Not engaging with you on anything else does not mean my arguments lack depth, it just means I’m ignoring the insane amounts of bluster in your posts.

I guess if you understand the concept and how ideological thinking continues oppression collectively for female people from male people and allows abuse and potential violence to occur to those female people, you would understand how de Becker’s terminology is not being misused.

I am engaging with an article YOU posted.

I am engaging with you with a report YOU posted.

You posted those. No one else did. If you didn’t want to engage with them, why post them?

You are even now posting about the ‘dismissal’ and ‘minimisation’ of transphobia and the meaning of forced teaming! You are engaging on wider issues, but you are not prepared to discuss them. You want to use them to show ‘transphobia’ and ‘prejudice’, yet cannot engage at all.

You keep mentioning you are a centrist? What the fuck do you even mean by that?

Your point was "90% of Google results about forced teaming are about LGB and T"
I was just saying that isn't a "fact".
One might think you were suffering a bit of confirmation bias there

Oh you are so wound up by this…someone asked for evidence on the issues I raised and the fact that some of the documents covered wider points than my original argument does not mean that I am engaging on everything in those texts!

Centrist means I have empathy with both sides and can appreciate some of the arguments in both sides . It also means I can be critical of extremist viewpoints such as cg cancelling / hate and minimisation of trans discrimination/transphobia.

Your point was "90% of Google results about forced teaming are about LGB and T"
I was just saying that isn't a "fact".
One might think you were suffering a bit of confirmation bias there
no, just a bit of exaggeration. But I couldn’t find many examples at all of it in usage (rather than in commentary) except in gc arguments, despite equivalency arguments being commonplace in discussions about discrimination…

@Helleofabore and the fact that you’ve never heard of a centrist speaks absolute volumes

I often find I don't feel clever enough to keep up with these discussions but @Helleofabore Is so intelligent and articulate, I'm always grateful to read posts like theirs so well laid out as it puts to words a lot of what I would like to say, and covers things that I would likely not pick up on.

@TheHoover I don't think you are a "centrist". The language you use, and your attempts to belittle and flip things like force team to show the gc arguments up as somehow ridiculous or somehow using the exact tactics the TRA ideologists use is clear to see. It's seems very goady to me.

As an aside, I'm not sure it's possible to be a "centrist" here. Not where gender ideology has become such a huge deciding factor in so many things and women's hard won rights are being denied them. I don't see anyone who is trans identified being denied any rights that anyone else doesn't have. I would stand up and fight (figuratively speaking) along side trans people if the government tried to remove their rights, they aren't. The government instead is willing to hand over women's single sex spaces, positions, sports etc etc etc to give transwomen extra rights. Transmen don't get the same special treatment, personally I think that would maybe be because the government recognises biological sex when it suits them, and it doesn't seem coincidental that the scales of balance again swing infavour of the male sexed people.

I agree with Helleofabore that its so important to know what the questions were or how the data was collected for those links you provided. Language has been turned on its head and for example recent census data has shown a massive demographic of trans people, but if you read the thread it is clear that the ambiguous wording of the census has led to skewed results:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4781071-1-in-67-englishwelsh-muslims-are-transgender?page=1

So a basic foundation of shared language is important.

I agree too that its really important when sharing your links that we know whether we are talking UK or USA or elsewhere, because there is such a vast difference in laws around employment for example. I'm UK so I know there are anti discrimination laws etc that I imagine cover the bases here, no one should be being discriminated against for being trans - except in areas that were previously single sex spaces or positions.

@TheHoover I don't think you are a "centrist". The language you use, and your attempts to belittle and flip things like force team to show the gc arguments up as somehow ridiculous or somehow using the exact tactics the TRA ideologists use is clear to see. It's seems very goady to me.

this is so funny! I don’t believe in tw in women’s sports, I definitely would not put tw in enclosed spaces with vulnerable women and I don’t believe in extending the GRA. Which to the TRA make me
a word that rhymes with serf. And to the FRW crew I am a TRA or MRA!
I feel like the BBC

😅 Fair enough, I think people have been trying to engage you in good faith and some of your responses have read as very much not in the same vein. Especially when you try and belittle people.

That is a hilarious statement.

Centrist is a political position. It is about not following either left or right wing economic policy.

Hence I questioned its repeated usage here.

Because whether you are left wing, centrist or right wing you can hold a range of views on this topic. It is a universal fact driven topic. People cannot change sex.

Feminists argue that the rights for all female people need to be protected when sex actually matters. ie. Feminists want to protect the sex based rights for female people regardless of their gender.

You can call yourself a ‘centrist’, but in this instance, your political leaning matter nothing. There are a huge number of left leaning feminists who believe that trans people should not be discriminated against, this is something I have repeated a few times now in my posts, but that where the needs and rights of female people are being negatively impacted, that this needs to have solutions that do not continue the oppression of female people.

It really isn’t a hard concept to understand. And it is universally held. By left wing, centrist and right wing political people.

Hence my intial comment about what the fuck does you being ‘centrist’ matter? Which was just another question you didn’t answer to attempt to deliver some kind of incoherent point or other.

I am quite enjoying your posts.

See above

And no, I am not wound up.

I find your posts incoherent and inconsistent. They also seem to be using tactics that are dishonest.

I find your posts incoherent and inconsistent. They also seem to be using tactics that are dishonest.

this shows you clearly have zero comprehension that there can be a centrist position on the matter of trans rights.