Teacher salary pro rata?

[JackSheepskin]

So I might be an idiot… but I’ve seen a lot recently about how teachers aren’t paid for the holiday periods, their salary is pro rata and paid equally over 12 months.

Therefore if I saw a job advert for £60k, does that mean you don’t actually get £60k but whatever remains from that salary after the additional 6 weeks holiday is taken off? Or is the salary advertised already pro rata?

Everyone in the UK is entitled to 5.6 average weeks holiday so at the very least teachers must be being paid for 195 days mentioned in the contract plus a further 28 (including public holidays). In reality as the advertised salary isn't pro rated then they are being paid for holidays (understanding that many work some of those days). You can't say that you receive the full advertised salary (whatever level that is) and simultaneously that you don't get paid for holidays!

I think the pay is decent to be honest but the pressures in term time are intense and teachers regularly work early mornings and late nights to get everything done. Budget pressures in schools have meant there is less support and therefore the workload has increased. Of course it’s all time sensitive too so if you have to work until 1am to get ut done, it is what it is.

That said, the £60k a year is definitely not standard. Lead teachers are not normal classroom teachers.

Where did you get 'after 5 years' from OP? That's after 5 steps on the payscale. After 12 years I am still not at the top of the pay scale. I don't think it is a well paid job. I do think the holidays are good though.

I’m assuming that includes allowances such as TLRs and SNA.

A salary of £39,000 (excluding allowances) would be on the UPPER pay scale, which I don’t believe the majority of teachers are on.

No disrespect to soldiers intended, as there is this small matter (sarcasm) of risking getting torn to shreds for no good reason, but I’m fairly sure they do get fed, clothed and housed…?

I'm a lead teacher.
I am in England.
I don't get paid anywhere near that much. I also know only one other person who is a lead teacher. Schools will have one, generally, if they have any at all. Most have none.

60k may be on the scale but no school would employ someone that expensive just as a classroom teacher. Most schools are trying to get rid of their more experienced staff. Expensive teachers get put on support plans and forced to resign.

I think you misunderstand.

If a teacher is asked how many hours they work they will say.

There's no overestimating. Yesterday I did ten hours at school and two in the evening. I'm capable of adding 10 and 2 together and making 12.

There's no comparing with others when you're commenting on your own working hours.

It's only after talking to many professions can conclusions be drawn.

Where are you getting this from? @KatherineofGaunt has posted the English pay scale just above your post. 5 years in and a teacher would be on 35k not 45!

Imagine being able to log on to a parenting forum. Then imagine not being able to have the critical thinking to understand a profession “which does alright” yet has critical shortages, not enough training and a school system where secondary pupils are increasingly going without specialist teachers.

Imagine being that lacking in self awareness that the two don’t quite match up that you can’t see the issue. Worst still, imagine being a parent who doesn’t have any concern over the state of education in England.

Genuinely baffling. People can think teaching is easy and well paid - not putting qualified people in classrooms though.

I'm on UPS3 and have a TLR. I am on £45k just about after decades of teaching. And there's nowhere up for me to go. I've been on this point for more than a decade. I can't rise any higher or earn any more as an actual teacher.

Apologies, should have said that I’m in Scotland. I assumed a lead teacher was a head of department tbh.

@Fairislefandango

So where does

teacher must work such reasonable additional hours as
may be necessary to enable the effective discharge of the teacher’s professional
duties, including in particular planning and preparing courses and lessons; and
assessing, monitoring, recording and reporting on the learning needs, progress
and achievements of assigned pupils.

Fit into those 1265 hours?

Teacher money is pretty good, £30k is about the average salary and the average salary for a lot of working mums in particular is lower than that. Most people don't earn £30-£40k and it's a genuine struggle (and huge expense) to cover 14 weeks of holiday so there's always a friction there. I'm not sure about the argument that higher wages would mean better retention, I'd earn more as a teacher but I don't want the job, the money isn't the factor. But if teachers need a higher salary and that's what they're asking for then that's what they're asking for. Teaching is a middle class profession and perhaps if I wasn't working class I'd be able to relate to the (doctor, engineer etc pays more) those jobs weren't/aren't for someone from my background.

@Sherrystrull

I'm nktsure why you think teachers would be immune

If someone asks me how long I work, I say my contracted hours or if they mean in a day, I'll say 12.5.

I dont actually work 12.5 hours though.

There will be periods throughout the day where I'm not actually working.

Some days I could say 1 work 14 /15/16because that's how long I'm out the house. I've not worked every minute of that though

Anyway, I'm not arguing that teachers don't work hard or that it's not a difficult job with longer than school hours term time.

I'm sure it is.

But I do think some teachers seem to lack perspective a bit.

@JackSheepskin
No as far as I know. Of course they may exist in secondary schools but in primary there's only classroom teachers or those in management positions. Classroom teachers get to the top of the salary scale, point 5 after it was much reduced a few years ago, but then there is nowhere else to go if you want to stay in the classroom.
My OH has been teaching 20+yrs, been a depute head, acting head then gone back into the classroom & works in an SEN unit - for all their experience they're paid the same as someone who has just reached point 5.
Better paid than our colleagues in England but conditions & workload are just as much an issue in Scotland as they are south of the border.

I am support staff in an independent school, I am term time only and pro-rated for this, however it is paid over 12 months. Teachers (in our school at least) are considered full time and therefore not pro-rated.
As part of our package we get a discount on fees if our children get in. Mine would be pro-rated as I don’t would holidays but a teachers wouldn’t as they are ‘full time’

I'm from a very working class background, my dad was a debt collector and my mum a shop assistant. I'm a teacher! If you want to be a teacher, go for it, don't worry about the " class" you assign yourself to, just the passion you have for the job!
there are LOTS of posts available!

My OH & I are both from very working class backgrounds and are now teachers. We aren't considered working class now but our families most definitely are.

Arguments about holiday pay are complicated by the fact that Scottish teachers do have a holiday allocation and holiday pay, and English teachers do not.

English teaching contracts are unique and trying to apply rationale to them that applies to other working contracts is inappropriate.

English teachers do not have a holiday allocation and therefore cannot e.g. accrue holiday while on maternity leave and tack it onto the end like other workers can.

Immune to what?

If I tell you I've been at school for ten hours then I work for that long. My lunch break involves eating while marking. When I stop working I go home.

If you think I lack perspective then quite honestly I'd love to work in a job where I have periods during the day I'm not working.

£30k is about the average salary and the average salary for a lot of working mums in particular is lower than that. Most people don't earn £30-£40k and it's a genuine struggle (and huge expense) to cover 14 weeks of holiday so there's always a friction there.

Why don’t lots of those mums become teachers then? When it’s well paid and the conditions are good for a family life? Why is recruitment and retention such a big issue?

Teacher here. TLR and M6. Just over £40,000 a year and ten years experience. I am generally okay with my pay- I do a lot of work but equally, I enjoy my time off and avoid working. I make sure I have a work/life balance. However, I do have a major problem with our lack of resources and budget. I pay for a lot out of my own pocket and I have a young family to support. I buy compost, glue, paper, felt tips etc because we don't have the money. My TA deserves a huge pay rise and works so hard. If we do get a pay rise then they will make us take it out of our already small budget. This is unacceptable and why so many of us are striking.

So it really does seem like a decent deal for teachers

So... are you applying to be a teacher? Why the recruitment and retention crisis if it's a good deal? Nobody seems to be able to answer that...