Page 9 | Aibu to think most European countries don't have an Education class system or a class system at all?

Stellanotbud · 2023-04-15T09:24:06+00:00

Aibu to think that most European countries especially former communist countries don't have a class system or educational class system like the UK.. Most kids all go to state school & muddle along? Snobbery isn't a prevelant in most European countries & educational standards are high & mostly state run.

TwoFluffyDogsOnMyBed · 15/04/2023 18:48

Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 12:47

You say your experience of England is different than mine.

First of all are you fully English?
Because if you are, of course your experience is going to be much more friendly and welcoming than mine is, in England. If you are English it would be a bit naive of you to say that because you are treated very nicely , then everyone else must be treated nicely in England.

People who are half English, half another country, like me, often get treated like shit in England.

Even though I was born in England, if I visit England now, I get told to fuck off back to my own country .

I remember being in England one time. One man at a bus stop asked me what I was doing there. I said something happily like "I'm over here to visit". I was in a good mood.

He said to me "are you over here stealing our jobs? Fuck off back to your own country!!!. ".

I, taken aback, said "well actually I was born in England, my family just moved abroad when I was a child". Even though I shouldn't need to explain myself to any stranger.

He glared at me and said "well you don't fucking sound like you were born here! Fuck off to your own country

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Was the person who said those things middle class?

Original poster

Stellanotbud · 15/04/2023 18:55

Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 18:35

You moving from being being poor to middle class (while good for you) is not really relevant to what we are talking about. It's like you're kind of saying to people "well it's your fault your poor, just work your way out if it". Instead of us addressing the abuse aimed at the most vulnerable in society.

We are talking about class based discrimination. Children cant move themselves from one class to a higher class can they. As adults we can work our way up. But what about the children.

I also moved from poverty to being "middle class" (I hate that term) in Ireland.

I still see people in council estates being abused and sneered at and looked down on. I see children being left out.

My friend works in a primary school in Ireland. She told me that all the popular kids are the wealthy kids. All the unpopular kids are the poor kids.

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@Mooshamoo I've primary school kids, the wealthy kids in dc's classes are the ones with the latest runners, the latest gadgets etc... Wealthy middle class in Ireland is very showy, one must show off their wealth,new cars a must... You don't get many of the shabby middle class kids in Ireland that you read about on mumsnet with their second hand boden & banger cars.. In Ireland you are judged by your outward appearance of wealth & your kids too.

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TwoFluffyDogsOnMyBed · 15/04/2023 19:05

The class system is ridiculous. I’m from a working class background but my dad did a degree in his forties and became a lecturer. I also did a degree at an older age but worked as a cleaner for a few years.

I sleep on a sofa bed in the living room but have Orla Kielly curtains. My son and I live in a one bed flat but he went to private school. He’s going to a top 5 university and I’m unemployed. One of my best friends is a pharmacist and one is unemployed and lives in a council flat. They’re equally intelligent and interesting. No-one knows another’s worth. Worth isn’t about contributing financially to the crappy society we’re in.

As far as I can see, on Mumsnet worth is dictated by education and job. Oh and ‘work ethic’🙄🙄🙄

postapesto · 15/04/2023 19:09

Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 18:35

You moving from being being poor to middle class (while good for you) is not really relevant to what we are talking about. It's like you're kind of saying to people "well it's your fault your poor, just work your way out if it". Instead of us addressing the abuse aimed at the most vulnerable in society.

We are talking about class based discrimination. Children cant move themselves from one class to a higher class can they. As adults we can work our way up. But what about the children.

I also moved from poverty to being "middle class" (I hate that term) in Ireland.

I still see people in council estates being abused and sneered at and looked down on. I see children being left out.

My friend works in a primary school in Ireland. She told me that all the popular kids are the wealthy kids. All the unpopular kids are the poor kids.

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It couldn't be more relevant. You said poor people can't do what I, a poor person, did. You were wrong. You keep on being wrong.

You're friends an idiot, and a terrible teacher. That's just not how the schools are now, even in rural areas (maybe especially, in some rural areas) the kids are so mixed. Rich, poor, refugees, Ukranian, economic migrants, all different cultures and colours and religions and levels of wealth. My kids have friends from everywhere, from the local refugee hostel to an actual castle. This is the norm.

Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 19:19

postapesto · 15/04/2023 19:09

It couldn't be more relevant. You said poor people can't do what I, a poor person, did. You were wrong. You keep on being wrong.

You're friends an idiot, and a terrible teacher. That's just not how the schools are now, even in rural areas (maybe especially, in some rural areas) the kids are so mixed. Rich, poor, refugees, Ukranian, economic migrants, all different cultures and colours and religions and levels of wealth. My kids have friends from everywhere, from the local refugee hostel to an actual castle. This is the norm.

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I just find you increasingly bizarew. I ever said poor people can't do what you , a poor person, did.

I said it it not all relevant that you moved from being poor to middle class. How is that in any way relevant to anything?

That doesn't stop children in poverty being treated like shit does it. We say poor children are treated badly. You say "well I got out of poverty". So are you saying not to care about all the children currently in poverty?

The answer is not to tell everyone "to just get out of poverty". Some people will always be richer than other people.

The answer is to get everyone to treat people with respect. The answer is to get everyone to see people as worthy, no matter how much money they have.

Class based discrimination should be tackled in schools.

It's easy for rich children to pick on weak children. This should be watched carefully in schools

postapesto · 15/04/2023 19:28

No you are correct , it was your sock puppet friend who said that.

You seem unable to follow the point that there are very poor kids in my kids friends groups, in their school, in their GAA clubs. The notion that they are automatically unpopular is insane, and offensive.

spanieleyes · 15/04/2023 19:32

But you are the only one equating " worthiness" with money.
Of course people should treat each other with respect, but that's not a class based theology, it's a social one. Yes, some poor children are treated " like shit" but so are some rich children and every level in between. It's the behaviour that is the issue, not the class of the perpetrator.

CrotchetyCrocheting · 15/04/2023 19:38

Stellanotbud · 15/04/2023 18:55

@Mooshamoo I've primary school kids, the wealthy kids in dc's classes are the ones with the latest runners, the latest gadgets etc... Wealthy middle class in Ireland is very showy, one must show off their wealth,new cars a must... You don't get many of the shabby middle class kids in Ireland that you read about on mumsnet with their second hand boden & banger cars.. In Ireland you are judged by your outward appearance of wealth & your kids too.

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This is very true. When dh got a promotion a while back his workmates were saying oh you can upgrade your car now. They were clearly under the impression that we drive the car we do because its all we can afford but in reality neither of us cares about cars, we just drive them to their death.

My parents aren't irish and are a bit alternative and I'm a lot like them in that way. Very hands on would rather build something myself than buy it if I can, grow my own fruit and veg where I can, have a big wildlife friendly flower garden rather than slabs and decking and all that jazz. My parents were seen as weirdos in our very rural area and so we were too so I've never had that caring what people think thing, I'm used to being the weirdo and I think lots of people mistake that as us being poor because we don't actually 'show' that we have any money.

Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 19:42

postapesto · 15/04/2023 19:28

No you are correct , it was your sock puppet friend who said that.

You seem unable to follow the point that there are very poor kids in my kids friends groups, in their school, in their GAA clubs. The notion that they are automatically unpopular is insane, and offensive.

Wow. You're a very aggressive person. I wouldn't want to meet you in real life!

MaJolie · 15/04/2023 19:57

Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 13:39

I'm just looking at Ireland aswell. I'm in Ireland. People will say that there is no class system in Ireland. But there is. People totally stick within their social circles.

People from wealthy families hang around with people from other wealthy families in Ireland.

I often think marriages in Ireland is less about romance, and more about the University degree and family wealth.

For example, if I know a man with a university degree in Ireland, I know he will only marry a woman with a university degree . The wealth of the family is also important.

Men from rich families will only marry women from rich families.

I have lived in Ireland for a long long time. I have never seen a man from a rich family marry a woman from a poor family.

I have seen poor people in Ireland be told that it is their fault that they are poor. Children of single parents in Ireland are totally looked down on. Even if the father just left the mother.

To succeed in Ireland you need to have had a wealthy father, get a good university degree. And then you are marriageable.

Ok, @Mooshamoo, I think your view of class in both Ireland and the UK is very un-nuanced. I’m Irish, born into the bottom of the working-class (dad a bin man, grandads on both sides unskilled labourers, no one went to school past 13 till I did), got out of my immediate circumstances via education, moved to the UK to study at postgrad level and lived and worked there for 25 years before returning to Ireland.

Of course there’s a class system in Ireland, albeit differently stratified to that of the UK as a far less industrialised society till fairly recently. I left Ireland a WC woman, I came back as someone perceived to be MC (multiple postgraduate degrees, educated register, professional career, house in an ‘old money’ part of the city, etc). I’ve been up and down the class system in both countries. I went to an elite UK university and have UC friends, but anyone who asks what part of the city I’m from here will ‘place’ me immediately.

I don’t recognise the Ireland you describe any more than I do a UK full of ‘hard, cold’ people. The reason most people tend to marry within their class is the same here as elsewhere — you mostly socialise in your own class. I married another ‘educated WC’ man who also has multiple degrees and is successful.

But the stuff about needing a wealthy father to be marriageable is nonsense. Poor people and single parents are often looked down on, appallingly, across many countries — it’s not unique to here. And having a degree is pretty normal here — Ireland has something like the fifth most educated workforce in the OECD stats. I don’t have a single friend of my generation (means-assessed grants era) who doesn’t have at least one.

Education is far more socially mixed here. DS goes to a city centre school along with the kids of our cleaner and the kids of our architect.

SueVineer · 15/04/2023 19:58

Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 11:49

I'm half English. My English side of the family have always been extremely cold and cruel to me. Never caring about me. Never seeing me as really part of their family. Cutting me off etc.

I have tried to figure out why they are like that. And I have looked into the history of thr UK culture. I looked into my English family's history.

I realised that my English grandmother sent by father to a boarding school at age 8. They werent rich, my father won a scholarship to go there.

My father hated boarding school. He told me he cried all the time. He told me that he barely saw his parents. He told me it was a harsh cold system at the boarding school where the older boys bully the younger boys.

If we put boys into schools like that a young age in the UK, they are going to become cold and cruel. With a lack of empathy. Most UK politician come from these boarding schools

The entire UK system puts school and standing, before empathy, kindness and family.

I think this Is why English people become emotionally stunted.

And we have to admit, we are known around the world for being cold and cruel. I have visited many many countries, English people are known everywhere for being cold.

Definitely time to change

Most English politicians don’t come from boarding schools at all. It’s very rare in the uk for anyone to go to boarding school.

I have family in other European countries- I’d actually say it’s more of a meritocracy in the uk than in pretty much all of mainland Europe. That’s why so many move to the uk.

Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 20:06

MaJolie · 15/04/2023 19:57

Ok, @Mooshamoo, I think your view of class in both Ireland and the UK is very un-nuanced. I’m Irish, born into the bottom of the working-class (dad a bin man, grandads on both sides unskilled labourers, no one went to school past 13 till I did), got out of my immediate circumstances via education, moved to the UK to study at postgrad level and lived and worked there for 25 years before returning to Ireland.

Of course there’s a class system in Ireland, albeit differently stratified to that of the UK as a far less industrialised society till fairly recently. I left Ireland a WC woman, I came back as someone perceived to be MC (multiple postgraduate degrees, educated register, professional career, house in an ‘old money’ part of the city, etc). I’ve been up and down the class system in both countries. I went to an elite UK university and have UC friends, but anyone who asks what part of the city I’m from here will ‘place’ me immediately.

I don’t recognise the Ireland you describe any more than I do a UK full of ‘hard, cold’ people. The reason most people tend to marry within their class is the same here as elsewhere — you mostly socialise in your own class. I married another ‘educated WC’ man who also has multiple degrees and is successful.

But the stuff about needing a wealthy father to be marriageable is nonsense. Poor people and single parents are often looked down on, appallingly, across many countries — it’s not unique to here. And having a degree is pretty normal here — Ireland has something like the fifth most educated workforce in the OECD stats. I don’t have a single friend of my generation (means-assessed grants era) who doesn’t have at least one.

Education is far more socially mixed here. DS goes to a city centre school along with the kids of our cleaner and the kids of our architect.

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You said you don't have a single friend that doesn't have a degree. That kind of proves my point doesnt it? People with degrees only really hang around with other people with degrees.

If you have a degree in Ireland, you are looked down on if you socialise with people who don't have degrees.

Many , many people in Ireland don't have degrees. Many people leave school and work in shops/hotel receptionist jobs etc.

I have a degree. Some of my friends have a degree. I began to be friends with a woman that I met in choir she doesn't have a degree. She works in Dunnes stores.

All my friends with degrees were really snobby about her and were asking me why I was hanging around with her. I remember one of my friends saying "but does she not get fed up with working in a shop?".

I said "no, she really likes it"

spanieleyes · 15/04/2023 20:18

But most of my friends have degrees because we became friends at university and I work in a field where a degree is mandatory. So I am not deliberately only choosing friends because they have a degree, it simply means that most people I meet and therefore socialise with are from uni/work- which will be the same for the majority.

Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 20:22

spanieleyes · 15/04/2023 20:18

But most of my friends have degrees because we became friends at university and I work in a field where a degree is mandatory. So I am not deliberately only choosing friends because they have a degree, it simply means that most people I meet and therefore socialise with are from uni/work- which will be the same for the majority.

Thata interesting. Are you just fresh out of university.? I went to university and I wouldn't speak to anyone from that university now. Though I am in my late thirties. I don't know anyone that still talks to people they went to uni with.

Though tharlt might be an age thing. I'm late thirties. It might be different if you are early twenties. Are you in your twenties.

Don't you have any friends outside of uni/work?

I make friends in walking clubs/choirs/book clubs

Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 20:24

"most people I meet and therefore socialise with are from uni/work- which will be the same for the majority."

I don't think that is the same for the majority at all. Most people I know have lots of friends outside of uni/work.

They make friends at sports groups/ walking clubs/book clubs/yoga classes/hiking groups etc etc

spanieleyes · 15/04/2023 20:31

I am 63!
Most of my friends are either friends from university, or are married to university friends. I can't imagine NOT being friends 40 years later!

Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 20:44

spanieleyes · 15/04/2023 20:31

I am 63!
Most of my friends are either friends from university, or are married to university friends. I can't imagine NOT being friends 40 years later!

Thata interesting! Neither of us are right or wrong. Just different experiences. I literally don't keep in touch with one person that I went to university with.

University was such a long time ago to me.

All of my friends are people that I met in jobs/book clubs/yoga classes/ theatre groups.

But you said all of your friends are uni/work friends so they all have degrees. But do you not have any friends from hobbies?

spanieleyes · 15/04/2023 20:46

No.

Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 20:49

spanieleyes · 15/04/2023 20:46

No.

I just texted my cousin there to ask her. She said she never speaks to anyone from university either.

I just feel like I was a teenager in university.it was such a long time ago. I've met so many people since then.

It's interesting that you're still so close with people from 40 years ago from uni. I wonder is it a specialised degree so you all went on to work together aswell?

spanieleyes · 15/04/2023 21:00

No, we all have very different careers. In fact, only one friend who has pursued a similar career as I have but we were friends from being 11 and have remained friends since.

It's clearly my cold, cruel, English nature that means I have friends from over 50 years ago.

TrueScrumptious · 15/04/2023 21:17

I think it’s very odd not to be in contact with friends from university. I’m 57 and my university friends are some of my closest ones, although certainly some have dropped by the wayside. I have lots of other friends from other stages in life - some went to university, while many did not.

Original poster

Stellanotbud · 15/04/2023 21:18

postapesto · 15/04/2023 19:09

It couldn't be more relevant. You said poor people can't do what I, a poor person, did. You were wrong. You keep on being wrong.

You're friends an idiot, and a terrible teacher. That's just not how the schools are now, even in rural areas (maybe especially, in some rural areas) the kids are so mixed. Rich, poor, refugees, Ukranian, economic migrants, all different cultures and colours and religions and levels of wealth. My kids have friends from everywhere, from the local refugee hostel to an actual castle. This is the norm.

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@postapesto my children are in a Gaelscoil, we love the scoil & the language. Certain parents in the school have made it known from day 1 they don't care about the language they don't want their children educated with non nationals or travellers.. There are no non nationals or travellers in the whole school. When refugees arrived in Ireland the same few were relieved none would be sent to our Gaelscoil but the other local primary schools did get some. It's shameful & alive & well. @Mooshamoo my kids Gaelscoil is a cesspit of one up man ship..

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Mooshamoo · 15/04/2023 21:21

spanieleyes · 15/04/2023 21:00

No, we all have very different careers. In fact, only one friend who has pursued a similar career as I have but we were friends from being 11 and have remained friends since.

It's clearly my cold, cruel, English nature that means I have friends from over 50 years ago.

No but as you are went down that route, i could point out that it is cold of you not to socialise with anyone without a degree. Surely you have met at least one person without a degree.

spanieleyes · 15/04/2023 21:23

Of course I have but, as the vast majority of my colleagues also have degrees, I don't know that many people without one!

Original poster

Stellanotbud · 15/04/2023 22:53

@spanieleyes with all due respect it sounds like you have lived a very sheltered life of you don't know many people without a degree! I mean this in the nicest possible way!

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