Aibu to think most European countries don't have an Education class system or a class system at all?

[Stellanotbud]

Aibu to think that most European countries especially former communist countries don't have a class system or educational class system like the UK.. Most kids all go to state school & muddle along? Snobbery isn't a prevelant in most European countries & educational standards are high & mostly state run.

A friend of mine grew up in Soviet-era East Germany in a poor single-mother family. But academic prowess siphoned her off age 11 to a specialist boarding school -the education was free for everyone. That was an attempt at a meritocracy, I suppose.

@postapesto are you still going to say that I live in 1950's Ireland now, when yet MORE Irish people are coming on here saying the exact same thing as me.

In my experience and in this womans experience, there is extreme snobbery, class division and bullying in Ireland. Rich people in Ireland only mix with other rich people .

Here is yet another Irish woman confirming what I said

@whumpthereitis but it was open to everyone yes? And there were no fees attached due to the communist era? They wanted their brightest & best in academia the same way they wanted the most talented sportspeople, musicians, ballerinas etc..

I really don't understand why you are being so aggressive and defensive over this? You said 'you are making us look bad', is that it? You are so concerned with appearances that you want people who don't agree that Ireland is a class free utopia to stfu?

It isn't my experience that it is and it isn't my children's experience either. I'm not slagging wealthier people by saying that they stick to their own, it's just an observation.

There is most certainly a class system in the Czech Republic. I once worked with a woman married to a Czech (not of the upper classes) who had lived there and described it in some detail.

I used to live in Italy. The monarchy and aristocracy were abolished in 1949 but there is still definitely a class system. Coming from una buona famiglia is still very much a 'thing'.

The class system is more 'in your face' in Britain, but just about every country has its own version, even the supposedly egalitarian and classless America.

Feels a little hypocritical calling other posters;

'bizarre';

or complaining 'you are saying your one personal experience means everybody else's experience in the whole country is wrong';

or stating 'Why. Because people have different experiences. I can't believe that you would think that everyone would have the EXACT same experience as you. Grow up';..

when that was your exact stance coming into this thread insisting that all of England was absolutely a 'cold and cruel' place with 'cold and cruel' people, because that was yours and your family experience.

You extrapolate a 'cold and cruel' experience to insist all English people are like this, but turn around and accuse others of doing the exact same thing with a "Grow up" thrown in for good measure.

Time to take your own advice.

It's not a class free utopia. Nobody said it was. The issue was you took your personal ideas and extrapolated it to the whole country, the whole people. It's not true for the whole country, not even close. IT's not true for most people.

It's an observation you made, that is not reflected in our realities. We have moved on. We have new issues to contend with!

In your reality. Not ours, yours. In mine and other posters it very much is. It's lovely that you can move on but for poorer people unfortunately they don't have that luxury.

I have seen a lot of class based discrimination in Ireland.

@whumpthereitis but it was open to everyone yes? And there were no fees attached due to the communist era?

No they were not. They were pretty much reserved for the children of the elites of that time, like senior party members or regime functionaries - those groomed for future leadership. There were no fees, but often huge bribes to be paid.

Forgot to add, including being told to her face in a Prague restaurant that when speaking Czech "she had an accent like a peasant".

No, not at all open to everyone. It was open to those approved of by those in charge. Those approved of being the children of those in power, the children of their friends, and the children of parents who paid enough in the way of bribes.

@postapesto when I said that I saw a lot of snobbery bullying and class abuse in Ireland , you said that I was stuck in the 1950s and I was talking rubbish.

Now that two other Irish women have come on here saying that they have witnessed a lot of class abuse and discrimination in Ireland, and their children also have experienced that class based abuse.

Do you admit that it does happen in Ireland now?

I knew someone who worked for a well know fashion company, she said there was nothing as snobby as wealthy French people!

Oh what nonsense. I have found the most well mannered and polite people to have not very much and extremely well behaved children. You wouldn't speak to someone who works a certain job? That is pathetic. The middle class you are talking of are probably the ones with kids who run riot.

That's very misleading. What in your opinion would be an objective measure? One-off testing? That mainly recognizes students who are good test-takers. In any case. What you are talking about is not a decision, it's a recommendation by the main primary school teacher, based on the child's overall record. Parents are free to disregard the recommendation and enroll yheir child in a different school track.

There are two principal objections to the system. One, it's documented that children with an immigrant background often get lower recommendations than warranted by their overall record. Schools are working on addressing this - often it's due to a mixture of subconscious bias and a skepticism over how much students' families will be able to support them in a more academic setting.

Two, the system doesn't cater well to late developers. Again, true, but it's a tradeoff. My mother taught grammar school in Germany, and many many of her students including from non-academic families thrived with the special opportunities especially in the early years, age 10-13, after which you'd get a general slacking off with the onset of puberty. As to late developers, it's important to note that tracking isn't impermeable - especially in the more demanding regional systems, there are plenty of ways to move laterally in a more academic direction at later ages.

Except I did. I went from the poorest section of society to middle class. Through education and hard work.
It wasn't a luxury, it was a huge effort. But I and many many many others did it.
So yet again, you are wrong.

I think every country has it's own form of "class" system, whether that is what your family name is, where you went to school or uni or even if you have money or not.

Human nature is such that some people like to think that their situation in life is better than others because it makes them feel that they have something which others do not.

I think it is more easily identified in the UK because of the monarchy and the aristocracy and the fact that there are are still elite public schools which many in government have attended. As other pps have pointed out in communist countries it may be if you are part of the ruling elite.

When I lived in Spain for a couple of years I acquired an extensive knowledge of members of the aristocracy by reading Hola magazine.😁

Do you admit that it does happen in Ireland now?

I guess you can ask the poster to admit that, when you admit England isn’t cold and cruel where rhe middle classes refuse to speak to the working classes, as many many posters have told you

so I suggest you go first with the admitting

You wouldn't speak to someone who works a certain job? That is pathetic.

Speak to and socialize are completely different things. Everyone chooses who to hang out with according to their own preference.

You moving from being being poor to middle class (while good for you) is not really relevant to what we are talking about. It's like you're kind of saying to people "well it's your fault your poor, just work your way out if it". Instead of us addressing the abuse aimed at the most vulnerable in society.

We are talking about class based discrimination. Children cant move themselves from one class to a higher class can they. As adults we can work our way up. But what about the children.

I also moved from poverty to being "middle class" (I hate that term) in Ireland.

I still see people in council estates being abused and sneered at and looked down on. I see children being left out.

My friend works in a primary school in Ireland. She told me that all the popular kids are the wealthy kids. All the unpopular kids are the poor kids.

FFS I'm talking about poor people right now that face discrimination because of it. I never said that some people can't earn money and become better off. I even said it in my first post on this thread. That doesn't help kids in school right now or people who are poor right now does it? And let's face it someone has to work in the local shop, someone has to work in the meat factories, someone has to work in the warehouses, some people are never going to be able to work, and there are always going to be those that are poorer that is just a fact of life.

I mean I think we get it, you think you are 'middle class' which shows you do in fact think that Ireland has a class system and in your experience, kids from council houses or poor backgrounds don't get the shitty end of the stick because of it. That's great but I don't understand why you are attempting to aggressively shout down other people posting their experiences too?

@Endlesssummer2022 · Today 14:15
France doesn’t have a class system? Bwhahahhahahahahah!

l laughed so much I lost a mouthful of wine when I read this 😂 I was soooo shocked when I lived there late 80s/early 90s -definitely a deeply entrenched class system in France despite the revolution!

Yes it's all image. There's a certain delusional subset of Irish society who are determined the country appear "progressive" & "liberal" our current government included. The reality is anything but. @Mooshamoo take no notice I know exactly what you mean, the judging people & snobbery is alive & well.. People here are determined to box people into sections, if you don't have money or a "respectable" job or are not from a "respectable" family folk won't bother with you. True story.